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21

Tuesday, December 13th 2016, 4:56pm

Leptis did a great analysis thread on this.

Tonights patch will impact his outcomes, but probably in a mostly positive way for lmg users. Tho that damage curve statement in the patch notes is interesting.

As the spread comes down with burst length hrec becomes a dominating factor you cant control. I guess you control it by getting close enough to the target such that the distribution of most rounds bouncing between -ve and +ve values of hrec will still hit the size of the target.

NoctyrneSAGA

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22

Tuesday, December 13th 2016, 5:00pm

The whole concept is just illogical, for me at least.


Use your every day garden hose to figure out why it actually is intuitive.

"Hip fire" your garden hose.

See where the water stream is landing?

Imagine that is a stream of bullets.



After the initial jump of the hose when you first let it loose, you can more easily control it and bring it back on target.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

VincentNZ

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23

Tuesday, December 13th 2016, 5:22pm

The whole concept is just illogical, for me at least.


Use your every day garden hose to figure out why it actually is intuitive.

"Hip fire" your garden hose.

See where the water stream is landing?

Imagine that is a stream of bullets.



After the initial jump of the hose when you first let it loose, you can more easily control it and bring it back on target.


Well this is a nice metaphor but not applicable for weapons. With hoses beyond the initial force, which is represented by the FSM quite well in these games, you have constant pressure. With weapons, even when firing with really high rate of fires, you are "surprised" by every shot, meaning you basically get the same force applied with every shot, if you get my drift.
Furthermore, with every bullet spent, you fight this recoil, compensate and overcompensate, all the while your arm tires. Even when bipodded you will feel this effect. This is why I think BF4 had the concept point on in terms of mimicking shooting mechanics in an authentic AND fun way. Quite intuitive, too.

NoctyrneSAGA

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24

Tuesday, December 13th 2016, 5:25pm

With weapons, even when firing with really high rate of fires, you are "surprised" by every shot, meaning you basically get the same force applied with every shot, if you get my drift.


Which is still reflected with recoil accumulation and spread.

You are not perfectly accurate as with the garden hose.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

marbleduck

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Tuesday, December 13th 2016, 6:42pm

So lmgs do loose accuracy during sustained fire not because of spread but due to recoil?

Yes.

Feel free to hold down the trigger, but not for too long.


That is illogical. At any point during a burst, a player can return the aim to the target. You are assuming that he loses the ability to move the mouse while firing.

In regards to Noctyrne's hose analogy, it's fairly accurate. When firing in automatic, the recoil isn't nearly as bad as it is for single shots. Furthermore, very heavy weapons (like BF1's MGs) don't have much recoil in the first place, and shooting long bursts allows the user to note the location of the tracer impacts and adjust aim accordingly.

Platoon Marble Duck

Hate Mail

"you obviously don't know what an argument is as there is only one person battling. Do you really fucking think I want subs? You think you can act all big and powerful just because you sit on a computer at least 6 hours a day like the probably nerdy unwanted retard you are with 4.3k subs? You think 4.3k subs is a lot? LOL you need medicine man. I don't want any subs as i just have a google account for other media and writing comments. Think twice before you act. You even said in your video you aren't that great of a player, and the comments agree you aren't. Maybe you should once again think twice before you act, stop being such an annoying, ignorant bastard that everyone wants to shut up, and god, literally, just shut up. Your voice gave me a headache :s"

"As a youtuber shouldn't be trying to be reeling in your viewers with exciting stuff being said not your boring ass commentary for your video"

"The more you watch his vid the dumber he gets I swear he's borderline autistic look I got shot behind cover beacuase thin sheets metal are unpenetrable. Bf4 is just as quiet and tactical as bf3 random explosion in the background . Player has dissconected from chat
You started playing bf3 and never touched bfc1/2. Please do yourself a favor and shutdown your generic cod channel down"

"Nice clickb8 Faggot w8ting for your shit tier video to disable comments . Fucking newfag cancer go play some cod you activisiom cock faggot"

"I don't see why he [MarbleDuck] always tries to shit on levelcap he is better and has a million more subs...and also "there isnt a best gun in she game there are guns that are better that others at different engagement distances" yes thats true and whichever is the best/most average at all of them is the "best gun""

"Marbleduck you don't know shit lol levelcap knows more than you do you cant talk about how someone puts up garbage when you do yourself your a newcomer to YouTube acting like you know shit step up in the food chain first then you have the right to talk otherwise your just a fish trying to compete with sharks"

"Why don't we just witness "LevelCap vs MarbleDuck" One on One both on Battlefield 3 and Battlefield 4 seen as there is so much Controversy about the Two Youtubers"

"stfu cunt, BF3 was way better end of discussion"

"Stfu man, you're be littleing the most looked upon Battlefield Youtuber. No one cares about you, how much of an ego you have, or quite frankly your opinion. It's a fucking game.... Does it really fucking matter? Pathetic man."

"fuck you asshole, dont talk shit about total"

"Wtf is your problem? You have no subs and he has millions, yet you pick on him like some kind of stubborn, ignorant, rude child born with a silver spoon is his mouth. It's easy to do that, for example... You said there was no background noise yet there is. You say you're a fairly good player, you're not."

"please talk like a normal person and not like a professional"

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "marbleduck" (Dec 13th 2016, 6:48pm)


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26

Tuesday, December 13th 2016, 7:50pm

Quoted

That is illogical. At any point during a burst, a player can return the aim to the target. You are assuming that he loses the ability to move the mouse while firing.
Not losing the ability to aim, but making it harder to maintain accuracy while firing, so after some point it's just easier to let the recoil reset a bit, than continuing the struggle

Quoted

In regards to Noctyrne's hose analogy, it's fairly accurate. When firing in automatic, the recoil isn't nearly as bad as it is for single shots. Furthermore, very heavy weapons (like BF1's MGs) don't have much recoil in the first place, and shooting long bursts allows the user to note the location of the tracer impacts and adjust aim accordingly.


Yes, it's true for recoil, that's why we have FSM. But bullet spread getting tighter over time just because?

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27

Tuesday, December 13th 2016, 8:15pm

So lmgs do loose accuracy during sustained fire not because of spread but due to recoil?

Yes.

Feel free to hold down the trigger, but not for too long.


That is illogical. At any point during a burst, a player can return the aim to the target. You are assuming that he loses the ability to move the mouse while firing.

In regards to Noctyrne's hose analogy, it's fairly accurate. When firing in automatic, the recoil isn't nearly as bad as it is for single shots. Furthermore, very heavy weapons (like BF1's MGs) don't have much recoil in the first place, and shooting long bursts allows the user to note the location of the tracer impacts and adjust aim accordingly.
The recoil impulse of a gun is the same from shot to shot. Same bullet weight moved by the same amount of gas and cycling the same action means it is pretty consistent. When firing in full-auto or very fast semi-auto, the impulse builds against the body since you don't have time to fully reset between shots. Heavier guns can still have a lot of recoil, but the impulse is different. A BAR has a lot of recoil, but it is not unpleasant to shoot. The recoil impulse is not a 'kick' striking your shoulder, but instead is a shove because the weight of the gun softens the blow. However, instead of contending with the kick from the round itself like you get from a bolt action rifle, you are contending with the reciprocating mass of the action and the weight and length of the gun itself. That is what horizontal recoil represents in game.
As far as the LMG spread decrease mechanic, the only logic I can apply is that most machine guns (especially at the time) fire from an open bolt. This means the mass of the bolt itself slams forward when the trigger is pulled, which can throw the shot off. Once you have fired the first shot, the bolt slamming forward just blends into the recoil impulse.
However, the LMG mechanic is really just a way to make tap-firing pointless in BF1.

VincentNZ

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28

Wednesday, December 14th 2016, 1:02am

With weapons, even when firing with really high rate of fires, you are "surprised" by every shot, meaning you basically get the same force applied with every shot, if you get my drift.


Which is still reflected with recoil accumulation and spread.

You are not perfectly accurate as with the garden hose.


Yeah but you are not getting more accurate at all, as others pointed out more eloquently before. This is not how weapons work. YOu still feel every shot individually, while you would have ONE constant force pressing against you with your garden hose. I am not a fireman though, I leave the high pressure hoses to the experts.
It is an easy concept to grasp if you look at a semi-auto weapon that fires at, say 300rpm at maximum ROF. You pull the trigger, recoil, compensate, shoot, recoil compensate. But as this is a fluent movement you overcompensate with every shot, and you try to compensate for that as well, this is why you get less and less accurate. Along other things like your gripe loosening over time, tiring arms etc. There is no magical "it gets easier after five shots"-button.

Teleph0nes put it in a really nice and understandable way, well done, sir. The FSM is just a artificial mimickry of pulling the trigger for the first time which causes the surprise, but it is still the same you feel with every shot. That is why there is no FSM on full-auto mode. Here the handling of the LMGs are counterintuitive and just wrong, especially when you have another automatic weapon class that functions differently, and a third one that works in the same way as in BF4.

But we all had that before. I see a problem with this, because it is unintuitive and unauthentic. When compared to BF4 weapon mechanics it is less fun as well, because it creates inconsistency between the weapons, you are missing or hitting shots that you should not. For the guys that crunch numbers a lot and min-max their performances by analysing each engagement this sounds fun though. I can fully understand that it even makes sense to you guys, because it does in a very mathematical way.
The spread FSM though is something that is beyond me.

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29

Wednesday, December 14th 2016, 1:20am

Quoted

I was thinking that extending the overheat for the Lewis from the universal 35 to 47 (it's mag capacity) would be a decent starting point.

I called it, the overheat buff is great.
Been waiting for that TACHANKA BUFF for much longer than BF1.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "The Guy who gives Ammo" (Dec 14th 2016, 1:25am)


Zer0Cod3x

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30

Wednesday, December 14th 2016, 2:30am

That is illogical. At any point during a burst, a player can return the aim to the target. You are assuming that he loses the ability to move the mouse while firing.

I'm not sure I get your point.

I don't see how you can compensate for randomised recoil.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.