Welcome to symthic forums! We would love if you'd register!
You don't have to be expert in bit baking, everyone is more than welcome to join our community.

You are not logged in.

Zer0Cod3x

Can't get a title

(1,327)

Posts: 1,531

Date of registration
: Dec 23rd 2013

Platform: Xbox One

Location: The Land of Multitudinous Kangaroos

Reputation modifier: 13

  • Send private message

71

Thursday, December 15th 2016, 5:04am

I too am happy the Henry got fixed, but yeah, this has just made the limb multiplier issue especially obvious.

If a projectile passes through multiple "zones", the game should count it as a hit on whichever "zone" would do the most damage. If you shoot someone through his arm, and it continues through his upper chest, then exits, that should be a chest shot. If you shoot a prone guy in his rear from behind and it travels all the way through his body and exits his head, that should be a headshot.

Whilst this seems like a good idea, problems arise when the projectile takes two or more frames to leave the target's hitbox.

Implementing your system would require the game to take multiple damage readings, compare them, and apply the highest one to the target. When this whole process occurs in one frame, there are no problems.

However, if the projectile entered another hitbox on the same target over the space of more than one frame, this would bypass the comparison step, as the hits occured in different frames.

This would result in more than one hit registering on the target with one projectile, which is arguably much more broken than the original problem you were trying to solve.


I'm also not sure if there's a workaround for this.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


Posts: 3,636

Date of registration
: Mar 19th 2014

Platform: Xbox One

Location: Canada

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 16

  • Send private message

72

Thursday, December 15th 2016, 5:45am

I'm also not sure if there's a workaround for this.


I figured there might be an issue like this, but it was worth consideration at least.

A simple solution could be to simply count upper arms as chest, seeing as it would be relatively rare to only hit the upper arms and not the chest, especially from the side.
Who Enjoys, Wins

Posts: 33

Date of registration
: Apr 5th 2014

Platform: PS4

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 5

  • Send private message

73

Thursday, December 29th 2016, 12:53pm

I'm also not sure if there's a workaround for this.


I figured there might be an issue like this, but it was worth consideration at least.

A simple solution could be to simply count upper arms as chest, seeing as it would be relatively rare to only hit the upper arms and not the chest, especially from the side.

I like that idea, simplifies it and removes one more factor that latency can cause to go wonky.

As far as the Martini nerf goes, I feel that it was perhaps too much after having some time to play with it post-patch. It seems like there is not much of a reason to run with the Martini over the SMLE now. Only being able to hold one round and the damage model separated the Martini as a high risk-high reward weapon from the rest of the Scout choices. The hitboxes likely would've needed a fix anyways, but I would much rather have seen the damage model change so that the Martini had a similar feel, but drop the max one shot kill range down and give it a uniform 100 damage cap from let's say 0 to 40-60 yards?

I think the OHK ranges are a great idea, but the Scout class is a bit perplexing in that these high powered rifles lack the ability to get the kill at close range. For that reason, I'd like to see the Martini cover that gap effectively with it's damage adjusted to a more limited OHK range, which also increases the skill required to run it with only one round loaded at a time. Keep the damage, force the range to dictate the difficulty in using the weapon.

Thoughts?

NoctyrneSAGA

PvF 2017 Champion

(9,997)

Posts: 7,194

Date of registration
: Apr 3rd 2012

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 19

  • Send private message

74

Thursday, December 29th 2016, 7:31pm

@Mr_Byddy

Scout is not a close range class.

That is Assault.

It makes perfect sense that close quarters is not Scout's strength.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

Posts: 33

Date of registration
: Apr 5th 2014

Platform: PS4

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 5

  • Send private message

75

Thursday, December 29th 2016, 9:20pm

@Mr_Byddy

Scout is not a close range class.

That is Assault.

It makes perfect sense that close quarters is not Scout's strength.
Agreed, I'm not suggesting that it needs to be the strength of the class, which is why I was referring strictly to the Martini.

It's already distinct from the rest of the Scout weapons in that it's one of only two rifles without a scoped variant. Of the weapons capable of doing 100 damage within their OHK ranges, it has the lowest minimum damage (70 vs 80) for the class. The bullet velocity is the second lowest of all the Scout rifles.

What I'm trying to say is that it's effective range isn't particularly characteristic of a Scout/sniper class. With the weapon characteristics it makes more sense to me to shift the max damage range below the SMLE's (which, despite the damage models, is more geared towards ranged gunfights with a choice of scopes and greater bullet velocity) and allow it to be more effective as a mid-range weapon. Given the one bullet capacity and reload time, it is not going to break the game if it is capable of OHK at ranges which may put you in contact with the other classes, especially with the damage multipliers being altered. It wouldn't be easy to play up close given all that, which is why I wouldn't mind seeing the closer damage range be bumped up to 100 to compensate. It's at 90 now, and was prior to altering the hitboxes so the cumulative effect may not be a whole lot different when your shots aren't on point.

Prior to the recent adjustments, the SMLE and Martini could be played very differently and the patch removed much of what it made it a considerable alternative for the overlapping OHK range they shared. I'd rather see it be given it's own niche again as opposed to where it stands now.

NoctyrneSAGA

PvF 2017 Champion

(9,997)

Posts: 7,194

Date of registration
: Apr 3rd 2012

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 19

  • Send private message

76

Thursday, December 29th 2016, 10:06pm

Agreed, I'm not suggesting that it needs to be the strength of the class, which is why I was referring strictly to the Martini.

It's already distinct from the rest of the Scout weapons in that it's one of only two rifles without a scoped variant. Of the weapons capable of doing 100 damage within their OHK ranges, it has the lowest minimum damage (70 vs 80) for the class. The bullet velocity is the second lowest of all the Scout rifles.


Then the current Martini should be fine since its velocity confines it to closer range, its ramp up starts at 90 damage, and its sweetspot begins sooner than any other Sniper Rifle.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

Posts: 3,636

Date of registration
: Mar 19th 2014

Platform: Xbox One

Location: Canada

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 16

  • Send private message

77

Thursday, December 29th 2016, 10:12pm

The current MH is not fine, not even purely theoretically on paper, let alone in practice. We've already had very productive and positive discussions with many people involved here on how to buff it, ideally by extending the 1x multiplier to the lower torso and upper arms.
Who Enjoys, Wins

Posts: 3,292

Date of registration
: Apr 26th 2013

Platform: PS4

Location: Arizona, USA

Reputation modifier: 15

  • Send private message

78

Thursday, December 29th 2016, 10:22pm

Granted, the Martini Henry was still a challenging rifle to reliably lead targets with due to its uncommonly slow velocity prior to the bug fix (a decision made with game balance in mind), it has come in line with the rest of the Scout weapons in terms of the [fixed body part damage] multiplier. A change made with the intention to balance the game is always a good thing despite the chance that it could reduce the enjoyment [or efficacy].

We must realize that since the "sweet spot" mechanic was introduced there is an even greater emphasis on extremely accurate shooting when targeting soldiers running perpendicular or at a sharp angle to one's point of reference (to which this is exacerbated with a limitation to Iron Sights). In those situations, the chest region is significantly smaller due to being partially covered by the arm implying that a torso hit within the "sweet spot" range of one's preferred rifle will not always be a guaranteed kill.
One has to keep in mind that we also did not have exact info on whether we hit an arm, and how much damage we did unless we got an assist. Now with the hitmarkers we have and exact damage notifications things get obsoerved more carefully.


In previous Battlefields this has never been an issue since headshots were the only reliable form of killing a full health opponent, and therefore was not an area of concern when limbs were struck. Now that sniping has evolved, perhaps the limb multiplier should evolve alongside it.

We know that bullets travel through multiple targets, so by the same token DICE could alter the soldier skeletal system to sense a bullet passing through the arm and into the chest in the extreme angle situations. In fact, though I do not have undeniable proof and is purely based on conjecture, I believe that I have encountered a situation in Battlefield where I am behind a prone opponent at an angle where their back is partially covering the head. Now it could be related to the hit box, but I recall on multiple occasions shooting through the back and into the head.

Theoretically, the bullet-passing-through-body-components system exists so by the same theory it could be transferred to the arm-chest dilemma (not to mention that certain objects in the world can be shot through indicating that it could be implemented to the soldier skeleton as well). This would be a dramatic change to gameplay, but we have witnessed another large magnitude alteration in Battlefield 4 via the "headglitch" fix so it is not out of the realm of possibility.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

Source code

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
    AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
    AccelerationDamping 4.0
    AccelerationTimeThreshold 0.15
    SquaredAcceleration 0.0
    MaxAcceleration::Vec2
        x 2.0
        y 2.0
    YawSpeedStrength 1.0
    PitchSpeedStrength 1.0
    AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
        x 1.0
        y 1.2
    AttractSoftZone 0.75
    AttractUserInputMultiplier 0.45
    AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom 0.5
    AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
    AttractTargetSpeedInfluence 0.85
    AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
    AttractStartInputThreshold 0.1
    AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
    AttractYawStrength 1.0
    AttractPitchStrength 0.34
    MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
    MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
    ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
    SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
    SnapZoomTime 0.2
    SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.2
    SnapZoomPostTime 0.2
    SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
    SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
    SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput 0.2
    SnapZoomBreakMaxInput 0.2
    SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
    SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 1.2
    SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
    CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0

No Slowdown Data

Source code

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
    AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
    AccelerationDamping 4.0
    AccelerationTimeThreshold 0.15
    SquaredAcceleration 0.0
    MaxAcceleration::Vec2
        x 2.0
        y 2.0
    YawSpeedStrength 1.0
    PitchSpeedStrength 1.0
    AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
        x 1.0
        y 1.2
    AttractSoftZone 0.0
    AttractUserInputMultiplier 1.0
    AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom -1.0
    AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
    AttractTargetSpeedInfluence 0.0
    AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
    AttractStartInputThreshold 0.0
    AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
    AttractYawStrength 0.0
    AttractPitchStrength 0.0
    MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
    MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
    ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
    SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
    SnapZoomTime 0.2
    SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.0
    SnapZoomPostTime 0.0
    SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
    SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
    SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput -1.0
    SnapZoomBreakMaxInput 0.2
    SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
    SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 0.5
    SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
    CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0
    DisableForcedTargetRecalcDistance 7.0


No Auto Rotation Data

Source code

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
 AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
    AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
    AccelerationDamping 4.0
    AccelerationTimeThreshold 0.15
    SquaredAcceleration 0.0
    MaxAcceleration::Vec2
        x 2.0
        y 2.0
    YawSpeedStrength 1.0
    PitchSpeedStrength 1.0
    AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
        x 1.0
        y 1.2
    AttractSoftZone 0.75
    AttractUserInputMultiplier 0.45
    AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom 0.5
    AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
    AttractTargetSpeedInfluence 0.85
    AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
    AttractStartInputThreshold 0.1
    AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
    AttractYawStrength 1.0
    AttractPitchStrength 0.34
    MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
    MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
    ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
    SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
    SnapZoomTime 0.2
    SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.0
    SnapZoomPostTime 0.0
    SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
    SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
    SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput -1.0
    SnapZoomBreakMaxInput 0.2
    SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
    SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 0.5
    SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
    CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0
    DisableForcedTargetRecalcDistance 7.0

Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


Posts: 33

Date of registration
: Apr 5th 2014

Platform: PS4

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 5

  • Send private message

79

Friday, December 30th 2016, 12:23am

The current MH is not fine, not even purely theoretically on paper, let alone in practice. We've already had very productive and positive discussions with many people involved here on how to buff it, ideally by extending the 1x multiplier to the lower torso and upper arms.
I do like that idea and I know I've seen character breakdowns of the hit box positions, are the arms separated into upper and lower boxes? I can't remember for sure, but I know from most other shooters where they've separated the multipliers that the arms and torso have tended to each be one hit box. What I worry about there is that if this is not already the case, then that fix might also require them to look into balancing other weapons.

Out of curiosity, if the hit boxes are separated and those changes could be implemented without much difficulty, would you prefer keeping the range as is and making the 1x extensions or restoring the pre-patch multipliers and shifting the OHK distances closer in range (perhaps with it just overlapping the beginning of the SMLE OHK range)?

The reason I suggest the latter as an option is because I was always a little unsure of the Martini and SMLE sharing similar OHK range profiles when this mechanic was instituted to differentiate the use of the rifles on the battlefield.

Posts: 3,636

Date of registration
: Mar 19th 2014

Platform: Xbox One

Location: Canada

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 16

  • Send private message

80

Friday, December 30th 2016, 12:50am

I do like that idea and I know I've seen character breakdowns of the hit box positions, are the arms separated into upper and lower boxes? I can't remember for sure, but I know from most other shooters where they've separated the multipliers that the arms and torso have tended to each be one hit box. What I worry about there is that if this is not already the case, then that fix might also require them to look into balancing other weapons.

Out of curiosity, if the hit boxes are separated and those changes could be implemented without much difficulty, would you prefer keeping the range as is and making the 1x extensions or restoring the pre-patch multipliers and shifting the OHK distances closer in range (perhaps with it just overlapping the beginning of the SMLE OHK range)?

The reason I suggest the latter as an option is because I was always a little unsure of the Martini and SMLE sharing similar OHK range profiles when this mechanic was instituted to differentiate the use of the rifles on the battlefield.


I don't think I'd want to see a OHK within 30m, and any further than 80m is iffy with only irons and such an awful muzzle velocity; it simply seems similar to the SMLE because they both have a "normal"/average sweet spot range. I'll leave it to others to crunch the exact numbers, but I do think that simply letting the whole torso and upper arms have the 1x multiplier should get the gun very close to well-balanced; any other changes would likely be very minor tweaks.
Who Enjoys, Wins