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  • "Huntsman572" started this thread

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Thursday, December 1st 2016, 7:25pm

Correcting TTK to reflect ADS time and spread.

Let me start by asking what I hope is an easy question...how long does it take to ADS in BF1, and is this a constant, or does it vary by weapon? It's a stat I fail to see on Symthic.

So, I've been comparing the 8.25 extended to the 1907 trench, attempting to disern which is the better CQB option. The 8.25 offers the superior TTK of course, but in CQB where we'll be doing a fair bit of hipfiring, the 8.25 has awful hipfire accuracy compared to the 1907 trench. So, with the 8.25, if we are within hipfire range of our target, we either have to adjust our ttk upward due to bullet deviation or because we need to take the time to ADS.

So, the question is, how do we calculate the added time to accomplish each of these actions?

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Huntsman572" (Dec 2nd 2016, 6:11am)


Miffyli

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Thursday, December 1st 2016, 9:53pm

Let me start by asking what I hope is an easy question...how long does it take to ADS in BF1, and is this a constant, or does it vary by weapon? It's a stat I fail to see on Symthic.

Hmm for some reason I can't recall currently what was the variable for this, I should know it since we have sprintrecovery (sprint -> fire) and deploytime (weapon switch -> fire). I'd imagine it depends on weapon (and/or sight).
Edit: Apparently the delay is 0s.

As for spread in TTK: The idea is good and I can see where it is coming from (hell, I would use such knowledge too). However problem is that it really depends on how you fire the weapon. It would require options for tap-firing, most optimal firing (in terms of accuracy), most optimal firing (in terms of highest possible dmg) and so on. Without these options the values could be useless or even further misleading.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

  • "Huntsman572" started this thread

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Friday, December 2nd 2016, 12:39am

Quoted from "Huntsman572"



Let me start by asking what I hope is an easy question...how long does it take to ADS in BF1, and is this a constant, or does it vary by weapon? It's a stat I fail to see on Symthic.
Hmm for some reason I can't recall currently what was the variable for this, I should know it since we have sprintrecovery (sprint -> fire) and deploytime (weapon switch -> fire). I'd imagine it depends on weapon (and/or sight).
Edit: Apparently the delay is 0s.
As for spread in TTK: The idea is good and I can see where it is coming from (hell, I would use such knowledge too). However problem is that it really depends on how you fire the weapon. It would require options for tap-firing, most optimal firing (in terms of accuracy), most optimal firing (in terms of highest possible dmg) and so on. Without these options the values could be useless or even further misleading.
Some time is naturally required to ADS. It's certainly less than 1 second, but .2 seconds (for instance) is a meaningful delay.

I figured there would be a way to determine the deviation incurred by varying degrees of spread (1.5 for the 1907 trench and 2.5 for the 8.25) and thereby infer how many more bullets are likely to miss. Of course we would have to make some assumptions and averages, we're just trying to get a ballpark idea here.

This is the kind of thing I'd love to test on an empty server. Have 2 folks, one with the 1907 trench and the other with the 8.25 start firing simultaneously and go through numerous trials to see if a pattern emerges.

Zer0Cod3x

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Friday, December 2nd 2016, 1:48am

I figured there would be a way to determine the deviation incurred by varying degrees of spread (1.5 for the 1907 trench and 2.5 for the 8.25) and thereby infer how many more bullets are likely to miss. Of course we would have to make some assumptions and averages, we're just trying to get a ballpark idea here.

Yes, there is a way. It's very easy to figure out the deviation, you only require a scientific calculator.

The problem that Miff was trying to point out is that there's many different potential TTKs, depending on burst length, and the time taken in-between bursts.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


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Friday, December 2nd 2016, 3:33am

So was the original question of this thread answered? Does it take 0.2 seconds to aim down sights for all primary weapons?

  • "Huntsman572" started this thread

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Friday, December 2nd 2016, 4:32am

Not sure I quite understand the time between bursts. We're firing full auto rather than controlled bursts in BF1. As Far as how many bullets went down range in a typical CQB hipfire fight? Would it help if I tracked the results of my hipfire encounters and record how many rounds I fired in each engagement, then do that for both guns? If so, how many trials do you think will give a reasonably accurate estimate of what we're looking for?

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Friday, December 2nd 2016, 4:45am


Miffyli

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Friday, December 2nd 2016, 6:49am

So was the original question of this thread answered? Does it take 0.2 seconds to aim down sights for all primary weapons?

There is no delay to fire when you start to ADS, but the transition to ADS takes some time which uses fancy curves. Based on results in BF4 (there's also bigger and better ver2 of this but can't find it atm...) it takes ~0.2-0.3 s to complete the transition to ADS state.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

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Friday, December 2nd 2016, 9:50am


Quoted

(14:06:57) Riesig: I should stop now. People might get sig material again

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Friday, December 2nd 2016, 3:11pm

There is no delay to fire when you start to ADS, but the transition to ADS takes some time which uses fancy curves.

I do not suppose that the higher accuracy that comes with aiming down sights immediately applies though, right?