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NoctyrneSAGA

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231

Wednesday, December 14th 2016, 7:07am

Been too long since I computed it.

Sorry.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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Wednesday, December 14th 2016, 7:20am

I'm sure the Madsen and BAR won't complete directly, I more so meant the Hotchkiss and MG 15.
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NoctyrneSAGA

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Wednesday, December 14th 2016, 8:28am

BM has the slowest fire rate and worse recovery compared to the Huot.

The Huot's hRecoil was always good and closely matched the BM. If you wanted good accuracy with good recovery, you picked the Huot for that.

Now it surpasses the even the BM Storm's hRecoil on top of having better recovery with faster fire rate for just 5 less bullets. It seems that the BM is only going to be selected for long range battles where its combination of optics, spread, and hRecoil are needed.

The Lewis was similar with not as low hRecoil but significantly less vRecoil. In fact, the Lewis has the lowest vRecoil outside of Storm packages.

The Lewis and Huot both have accuracy that does not necessitate Bipod use while firing faster than the BM.

The MG15 LW compared to the Lewis LW and Huot LW has significantly worse hRecoil in exchange for a faster fire rate and larger magazine. As I said before, you're going to be missing a lot with this. If you choose to increase its accuracy, you give up that fast recovery.

These were the exact reasons to choose the Lewis and Huot over the BM and MG15 before. DICE has had to exaggerate this in order for people to recognize it.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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Wednesday, December 14th 2016, 10:17am

These were the exact reasons to choose the Lewis and Huot over the BM and MG15 before. DICE has had to exaggerate this in order for people to recognize it.


Or that simply wasn't enough reason to be chosen before.
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235

Wednesday, December 14th 2016, 10:25am

The issue here is, just because you can design a weapon to fill a certain role, that doesn't mean that's a role worth having. Ideally, when looked at across the playerbase, all tools/options should be used more or less equally. When something is underused, while that doesn't necessarily mean it's lacking potential, it does mean there's some sort of disconnect between the tool and the players. And that should always be fixed.

In the case of the Huot and Lewis, if you're going to design a gun around something (accuracy), it better be damn good at that role. Because when you design anything around being one specific thing, it has to excel at that role, not just be a little better. That's been a general problem with BF1's balance; things have something they're decent-to-good at (but never amazing), but then have a ton of drawbacks. No one wants to use something with more cons than pros, no matter how amazing its potential is, if it even has amazing potential.

My god this. Hit the nail on the head.



Guys, we aren't playing a hitmarker simulator here. There's more to it than just plain math. As to DICE's decision, I'm sure they went much deeper than just looking at what 200,000 noobs did. If it was me, I would look at a lot of skilled players, that had spent a bunch of time on all the different LMG's, and compared how they performed. It's not really that hard.




Noctyrne, do you view having many primary weapons in the game, that are balanced around the top 1%, and 99% of the playerbase will never use more than a few games, as a desirable characteristic for this game?Especially seeing as how one of the common complaints (not from me tho) are the overall lack of weaponry ?




This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Oak_Beard" (Dec 14th 2016, 8:38pm)


VincentNZ

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Wednesday, December 14th 2016, 11:57am

Yeah this is what I am saying. I love what Leptis and Veritable did with the weapon and hit charts. I've been looking at the hard numbers for four years now, and used them all to analyse the weapons. But to put it all into perspective you have to experience this first hand. Some people here are relying so much on the theory that they forget that stuff you can not measure has as much of an impact on the performance/niche/usability.

This can be stuff like recoil patterns more suited to you, visual recoil and misalignment, the harsh nature of BF1's map design or even the look of a certain weapon. There are thousand issues that regularly hinder weapons to play out their niche. An accuracy bonus of a Lewis and Huot does not matter, when you get sniped middle, left and right, whenever your head pops over a dune, just as an example.

Fact is the only thing going for the Huot that has a real effect on me is the absolute stillness of the sight. No visual animation whatsoever. This is how sights should work. Another example would be the Rigotti (factory), I recently played. I remember seeing someone here that effective range is up to 68m or so. I laughed hard when I was playing Empire's Edge and tried to hit guys that were 60m away. It was not that I was totally inaccurate, but the spread increase and decrease was eating me up. I have maybe five kills (full kills, as in 4 hits by me) at this max range or let us say 55m upwards. Best episode was this: Aiming at a guy running from F to C, 60m away. Hit, miss, Hit, miss, Hit (at this point I was really excited more than 50% accuracy). Then I got sniped. I was furious, but my mate asked what I was doing anyway I was standing there motionless and focused for more than five seconds.

Theory is nice and a good base of judgement, but practice is as much of a contender for balancing.

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Wednesday, December 14th 2016, 12:14pm

So the game should be balanced around people who are not capable of managing their spread correctly?
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Teamwork is where players function by themselves, but their effectiveness is multiplied when they work together. Not a checklist of "did we bring a healer so we can start playing?"

VincentNZ

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Wednesday, December 14th 2016, 12:37pm

So the game should be balanced around people who are not capable of managing their spread correctly?


No the game should be balanced around all players. And give each player the ability to excel by developing their skills, however the skill ceiling in BF1 is ridiculous. 20% accuracy discrepancies between players and overemphasised niches and roles do make gunplay frustrating. BF4 had it spot on for the automatics.

I know you guys saw issues with the BAs, but I always argued they were skill cannons, many people wanted an ease of use buff. Here and with the new game people suddenly claim that skill cannons are the hot shit to have.

BF4 had an accuracy discrepancy of 10% on every weapon, which gave people a more balanced chance and positioning/flanking/spotting (the metagame) had more influence on an engagement than before. You could win by gunskill and/or by playing smart. BF4 gave you all the tools. BF1 gives you BAs and skill cannons to shine.

Zer0Cod3x

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239

Wednesday, December 14th 2016, 2:14pm

If it was me, I would look at a lot of skilled players, that had spent a bunch of time on all the different LMG's, and compared how they performed. It's not really that hard.

That's exactly what using mathematical analysis does.

Only that the skilled player in question is using an aimbot and a mouse macro.

Or that simply wasn't enough reason to be chosen before.

I don't see how being the best 1v1 LMG at range isn't enough reason for you to choose it.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


marbleduck

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Wednesday, December 14th 2016, 7:05pm

As to DICE's decision, I'm sure they went much deeper than just looking at what 200,000 noobs did. If it was me, I would look at a lot of skilled players, that had spent a bunch of time on all the different LMG's, and compared how they performed. It's not really that hard.



Good thing that that is exactly what they did.

Platoon Marble Duck

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"you obviously don't know what an argument is as there is only one person battling. Do you really fucking think I want subs? You think you can act all big and powerful just because you sit on a computer at least 6 hours a day like the probably nerdy unwanted retard you are with 4.3k subs? You think 4.3k subs is a lot? LOL you need medicine man. I don't want any subs as i just have a google account for other media and writing comments. Think twice before you act. You even said in your video you aren't that great of a player, and the comments agree you aren't. Maybe you should once again think twice before you act, stop being such an annoying, ignorant bastard that everyone wants to shut up, and god, literally, just shut up. Your voice gave me a headache :s"

"As a youtuber shouldn't be trying to be reeling in your viewers with exciting stuff being said not your boring ass commentary for your video"

"The more you watch his vid the dumber he gets I swear he's borderline autistic look I got shot behind cover beacuase thin sheets metal are unpenetrable. Bf4 is just as quiet and tactical as bf3 random explosion in the background . Player has dissconected from chat
You started playing bf3 and never touched bfc1/2. Please do yourself a favor and shutdown your generic cod channel down"

"Nice clickb8 Faggot w8ting for your shit tier video to disable comments . Fucking newfag cancer go play some cod you activisiom cock faggot"

"I don't see why he [MarbleDuck] always tries to shit on levelcap he is better and has a million more subs...and also "there isnt a best gun in she game there are guns that are better that others at different engagement distances" yes thats true and whichever is the best/most average at all of them is the "best gun""

"Marbleduck you don't know shit lol levelcap knows more than you do you cant talk about how someone puts up garbage when you do yourself your a newcomer to YouTube acting like you know shit step up in the food chain first then you have the right to talk otherwise your just a fish trying to compete with sharks"

"Why don't we just witness "LevelCap vs MarbleDuck" One on One both on Battlefield 3 and Battlefield 4 seen as there is so much Controversy about the Two Youtubers"

"stfu cunt, BF3 was way better end of discussion"

"Stfu man, you're be littleing the most looked upon Battlefield Youtuber. No one cares about you, how much of an ego you have, or quite frankly your opinion. It's a fucking game.... Does it really fucking matter? Pathetic man."

"fuck you asshole, dont talk shit about total"

"Wtf is your problem? You have no subs and he has millions, yet you pick on him like some kind of stubborn, ignorant, rude child born with a silver spoon is his mouth. It's easy to do that, for example... You said there was no background noise yet there is. You say you're a fairly good player, you're not."

"please talk like a normal person and not like a professional"