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NoctyrneSAGA

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11

Monday, November 21st 2016, 1:11am

Yeah, it is called the Mortar which actually does quite a bit of damage to Tanks as well.

Also, Support has the BAR, Madsen, and Bulldog for CQB.
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With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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12

Monday, November 21st 2016, 1:22am

Mortar vs vehicles is, as a whole, bad even just compared to Rifle Grenades and K-Bullets, while running a CQB-ish MG and Limpets is just a poor man's Assault. There's really no reason to do either of these things when all the other classes are better options. This is a common problem in BF1, things being sort-of-effective at a role, but either having disproportionately high downsides or simply irrelevant compared to other options.

Can the Mortar do decent damage against vehicles? Sure. Is that useful or relevant when looked at compared to everything else in the game? No.

Can Support run a CQB MG and Limpets to be a close range demo class? Sure. Is that useful or relevant when looked at compared to everything else in the game? No.


Support isn't really terrible, it's just irrelevant.
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Monday, November 21st 2016, 1:44am

Support isn't really terrible, it's just irrelevant.

Utility wise he is more of a Force multiplier than anything else, which is where he succeeds very well, just the ammo refill itself enhances the combat efficiency of assaults(if they arent people that die at first sight of an enemy), the Mortar requires coordination though which isnt available alone, if you can gather up a trio of medic(for spotting), assault(direct damage) and support, suddenly the world looks a lot different, as no line of sight is required for the mortar, not to mention that you can communicate damage numbers.

And it has been already mentioned, but the support has the most firepower/most reliable damage for mid range engagements.

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Monday, November 21st 2016, 1:46am

@NoctyrneSAGA

I didn't want to reply to that quote chopfest but some comments on your post.

I routinely ran the tanks in BF2 and BF2142 out of ammo. If you have good positioning you will be firing your main gun pretty much constantly and killing pretty consistently while staying alive and that pretty much means you'll run the tank dry. In prior titles commander drops made that mostly a non-issue, but ammo regen with a small mag just makes overall more sense to moderate vehicle killing without making them ineffectual without a support player box drop.

The engineer has always been defined by vehicle repair, and anti-vehicle weapons. Now that class has been effectively split in two, with the repair half feeling rather unglamorous.

The limpet mine is totally mismatched to the LMGs, and the fact that you get one makes it a pretty meh gadget. It doesn't compliment anyone's AT. If you don't have enough AT you bring another assault because C4 and AT grens are almost immeasurably superior to the limpet, you don't bring support. The only time support really helps AT is when you've got a pack of assaults that need rocket gun ammo for long range tank battles. The HE mortar DOES complement other classes AT.

NoctyrneSAGA

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Monday, November 21st 2016, 2:02am

@tankmayvin

I tried out BF2 for a bit and couldn't get tanks to do anything except die in 2 seconds from helicopters.

But even then, having something like 50+ shots is excessive.

MGSV did the same thing with its tanks by providing a huge amount of ammo that you will never expend even if you hold down the mouse button forever.

You lost health faster than you expended ammo. Meaning effectively you had infinite ammo.



Limpet Charge makes sense on Support since the Mortar has a minimum range.

Getting one also makes sense since it has the possibility of infinite resupply.

It can be used as an unsupervised trap too thanks to the timed fuze.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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Darktan13

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Monday, November 21st 2016, 2:21am

So, I think it is obvious to anyone who has played support since launch that the latest patch severely weakened our class while leaving other classes mostly untouched. I have mentioned this is other threads, but considering the severity of the changes, I think it deserves its own separate discussion. So my assertion is this: With the massive nerfs to the airburst mortar, support now plays no significant role in BF1. With support making up one quarter of the game's infantry classes, this is devastating to the game's supposed balance.

These nerfs to the mortar include:

2. Much smaller blast radius, combining with horrendous accuracy to make RNG even more important and preventing the mortar from performing its role of crowd control. This nerf also mostly eliminated the purpose of the airburst mortar, as its blast radius advantage over the HE mortar is almost imperceptible now. Why use a version that can't damage vehicles or stop infantry waves? Whereas the previous airburst mortar was accurate for one shot and then relied on RNG to hit with the fast followup shot, now even the first shot can fire wildly off target, making the mortar thoroughly unreliable.

I will now attempt to argue why the mortar, rather than ammo, was the heart of the support class in BF1.


I disagree completely.

First of all, support wasn't and isn't just a mortar-bot, nerfing or even removing the mortar wouldn't make support non-viable. Such exaggerated and dramatic claims are absurd and baseless and don't help with the development of the conversation.

Point 2 is false.

Neither ammo or mortar are the core of support. the LMGs are. No other class can touch the sustained, accurate DPS and suppression output of a support.

Effectiveness or viability of a class or gadget is not determined by your experiences with poor quality teammates, to claim this is distracting and false. Not to mention you do not need permanent vehicle uptime for repairs to be valuable, and repair tool was the absolute core of engineer in BF3 and BF4, pretending otherwise doesn't help.

I have no idea why you need support to be the primary AT class, it never was and was never intended or designed to be.

You are refusing to see any upside to the class despite ample evidence and facts to support a pretty positive view of the class. every utility or strength the class has you dismiss out of hand or wave it away as if it was nothing, pretending infinite nades for everyone in the immediate area isn't valuable, pretending unbeatable damage, accuracy and suppression isn't what LMGs do, and pretending the entire class is just the mortar.

This kind of persistent and emotionally fuelled misrepresentation of the class and game only serves to have people ignore you instead of actually talking about any legit gameplay concerns. Even the title of this thread is an incredibly loaded question.

Quoted from "J0hn-Stuart-Mill"

EMPOWER EMPOWER EMPOWER

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17

Monday, November 21st 2016, 2:33am

@tankmayvin

I tried out BF2 for a bit and couldn't get tanks to do anything except die in 2 seconds from helicopters.

But even then, having something like 50+ shots is excessive.

MGSV did the same thing with its tanks by providing a huge amount of ammo that you will never expend even if you hold down the mouse button forever.

You lost health faster than you expended ammo. Meaning effectively you had infinite ammo.



Limpet Charge makes sense on Support since the Mortar has a minimum range.

Getting one also makes sense since it has the possibility of infinite resupply.

It can be used as an unsupervised trap too thanks to the timed fuze.
BF2 had terrible air balance, the jets with magic lock on smurf missiles were even worse. That being said if you had air dominance or simply played on maps without air the tank was quite potent, just not BF3 BF4 potent.

2142 tanks also had active protection and could reasonably duel with the vtols. Those also had to contend with the potent AA on the walker. Also since they lacked a driver mg you were constantly firing the main gun at all targets so ammo burned fast.

Thin is, because you can escape and repair, if you're conservative you ran out of ammo.

Being able to resupply your limpets is really over sold. It's a close assault device, so death is really likely, and the overall burst damage isn't that great with only one. Limpets need something of a buff. They just aren't that good compared to the mortar and IMO you're better off using the repair tool to support friendly armor than trying to charge the enemy armor with a limpet. Ammo + mortar and Ammo + wrench are really the most viable loadout. Squad granade spam is too powerful to pass up and wrench trumps the limpet, as does the mortar.

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18

Monday, November 21st 2016, 3:52am

Well, I understand why people complains for mortar nerf, but IMO it was too strong, especially in Rush: arm an objective - noone could disarm it. And as defender you can play as mortar-only - that was too much. And devs fixed the main issue - spam-ability. And instead of changing mortar resupply time they've changed the mechanics to make this thing not an ultimate devastating gadget, but as camper-clearing and support barrage tool. They also added five some smoke shots and fixed the HE range. The only thing they've done bad is airburst blast radius nerf - with all other nerf that was unnecessary and they should revert it back to pre-patch value - there is nearly no reason to use Airburst over HE for now, HE is superiour: better against buildings, better against vehicles, same range, nearly the same against infantry. Now it's way more balanced gadget.
P.S. support is my favourite class since BF3, but I like a competetive play and I'm agaist OP things such as UCAV pre-nerf in BF4.

Also, everyone who wants LMGs to be very accurate - that would turn them into Assault Rifles, do you really need this? Notice that LMGs are already have good hipfire accuracy(otherwise Gas Grenades would force LMS users to ALT+F4 constant ragequit), good stopping power at close-medium range, nice reload times(they are average in general, but on par with most weapons), ability to use AWESOME AA-sights and nice variants too, especially with recent addition of bipod to Low-Weight variants(but I still prefer Madsen Storm/Trench(gas gas gas), Bar Storm, MG15 Storm/Suppressive and M1909 Telescopic). Also, LMGs still could hit target at long range - that's enought. Making support accurate at longer ranges than now would make it one-man-army class.
There are only two LMGs that are bad in general: Lewis and Huot, both of them needs a min damage buff to 17.5, since both of them are low-rpm and burrently beiung outclassed by Madsen and MG15 completely. Also, Huot needs other variants than low-weight, a trench version and a storm version. Or simply be converted to Storm variant. Low-weight for 26-mag slow-firing LMG - DICE, why?
Limpets need something of a buff.
Why? They are already powerful against vehicles and are great tool for destroing camper nest in buildings. If you give two of them to support - with light anti-tank grenade he will easily solo-destroy Heavy Tanks and obliterate buildings in one "poof". One timed limped charge is already very well balanced, I don't think that it should be touched at all.
Sorry for my bad english - it's not my native language and I have difficulties with acquiring speaking/writing practice in my country. If I accidently insult you or say something wrong - I'm sorry, you can feel free to correct me.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "kazei009" (Nov 21st 2016, 4:01am)


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19

Monday, November 21st 2016, 4:16am

It is a game, where if you have boots on the ground you're supposed to capture flags in packs of two and three+, clear out enemy from a far and blow up vehicles. There are three classes, which excel in doing parts of that. Support is a sort of experimental noob-friendly Hollywood blockbuster class. Check this out - I can artillery-strike random infantry guys or do a saving private Ryan thing with a limpet charge and die gloriously in the process. Looks great on youtube. Thing is, three core classes can do all the work and they do not need any help whatsoever. So, for the sake of cinematography and diversity, there is another class, which can be situationally useful in good hands, but is completely irrelevant to someone, who is actually determined to win. Once you realize the class is intentionally irrelevant (same as in BF2, 3, 4) the need to fix it vanishes. Leave it, noobs will always find something "useful" to do with it. Just don't give it anything strong, so that good proportion of the team starts using it.

A bunch of problems appear when you decide to make it relevant. If you make it relevant, you would have to give it good AT potential, because one more support is one less assault/scout/medic. This dynamics further dilutes presence of assault (the most important man) in the game, making the opposing team's tanks OP.

Conclusion: Leave it be, it is supposed to be underused. Other classes can do all the work perfectly fine. Expect support to get even more "wonderous" weapons & gadgets in the future expansions, because it's the official "Neebs class".

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Monday, November 21st 2016, 4:25am

Also, everyone who wants LMGs to be very accurate - that would turn them into Assault Rifles, do you really need this? Notice that LMGs are already have good hipfire accuracy(otherwise Gas Grenades would force LMS users to ALT+F4 constant ragequit), good stopping power at close-medium range, nice reload times(they are average in general, but on par with most weapons), ability to use AWESOME AA-sights and nice variants too, especially with recent addition of bipod to Low-Weight variants(but I still prefer Madsen Storm/Trench(gas gas gas), Bar Storm, MG15 Storm/Suppressive and M1909 Telescopic). Also, LMGs still could hit target at long range - that's enought. Making support accurate at longer ranges than now would make it one-man-army class.
There are only two LMGs that are bad in general: Lewis and Huot, both of them needs a min damage buff to 17.5, since both of them are low-rpm and burrently beiung outclassed by Madsen and MG15 completely.


Agreed on this, MGs are for the most part pretty decent-to-good right now, bar the two .303 MGs.


Quoted

Why? They are already powerful against vehicles and are great tool for destroing camper nest in buildings. If you give two of them to support - with light anti-tank grenade he will easily solo-destroy Heavy Tanks and obliterate buildings in one "poof". One timed limped charge is already very well balanced, I don't think that it should be touched at all.


The idea is two have two Limpets with less damage, it would give them far more utility. It wouldn't chance balance much, but would make them drastically more appealing.
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