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  • "colers" started this thread

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Monday, November 14th 2016, 10:50pm

Should the Cei-Rigotti be reworked into a more interesting weapon?

Now, when it comes to thinking which weapons are really lagging behind in usability in the medic class, the ones that most people will name is the Autoloader .35 (Shuddup Marbleduck i know i know), the Selbstlader 1906 and the Cei-Rigotti.

Now, the fault of the first 2 should be obvious; the Autoloader has its .25 variant which is just as dumpy at close range and really only loses a single btk at longer ranges, along with overall being unappealing relative to the Cei-Rigotti due to 60 RoF not nearly making up for a complete halving in reliability. The Selbstlader is often just seen as a shitty mondragon, especially given that the benefits it has over the mondragon are smaller than those the Cei has over the Auto .35, but the Mondragon has its sniper variant which allows it to actually make use of its damage model, putting the selbstlader 1906 not only behind the cei but also behind the .35.

Now, I fully expect the Auto .35 to get 50 max damage and the Selbstlader to get a rate of fire buff and perhaps be turned into a marksman variant (on an unrelated note the tier 10 weapons need bloody variants. The variant system really has to be migrated to the customization screen) in order to really exacerbate its benefit over the Mondragon. This is partly due to it being the only really impactful buff i can think off, and partly due to the fact that the community is actually interested in a 2 shot 5 round rifle. Though, if the inevitable Meunier or Mle1917 is planned to fill this role needless to say everything i just said is void.


That leaves the Cei. Now, it cannot be overstated how valuable reliability and forgivability is for every player that isn't Marbleduck. Generally speaking any weapon demanding more than 40% accuracy from a player in order to be effective is considered universally unviable no matter how well it performs in other areas; which in some cases is a good thing because it allows for very fun niche weaponry to run with, the Martini being the prime example here. This is why the Cei-Rigotti is considered so bad, because for a single shot less to kill in ranges where this weapon is completely outperformed by LMG's, snipers and the entire high-damage line up of the selfloaders, you lose massive amounts of forgivability, and the slow clip reload cuts deep into your reliability.

Thats not to say that it is useless; in a pinch the Trench variant might outperform the SL sweeper. But in most cases, if you want a dedicated close range self-loader, you take the bloody SL 07 sweeper or the .25 if you aren't bothered by being relegated to semi-automatic. If you want something better on midrange, the Mondragon Storm is basically a straight upgrade. There is no singular situation that i can concieve of in which i can say "Yes, i need myself a Cei for this".

Now, you might argue that this makes it a versatility weapon.

You'd be wrong, because the single most important factor of a versatile weapons is its reliability; its lack of necessity to conform to any particular playstyle, and the ammo and reload times of the Cei just destroy it on that front.




However, this brings us towards a new issue: How the hell will we balance it.

Now, you can get VERY creative with balancing the Cei; why? Because this weapon never left prototype stage, and iconic to such a weapon, was designed in many different ways to make it more appealing; there is basically no info you can find on it that isn't contradicted by other sources; however, the 2 most notable ones are these: It is stated as being select fire in the sense of Semi-auto and full auto, but ALSO in the sense of being semi-auto and burst (such as the wikipedia article on selective fire). It has been reported to have magazine sizes of 10, but also detachable magazines of 20,25 (no clear answer on whether these magazines were all fixed or detachable, though to put a clear drawback on the weapon I'll opt to suggest longer fixed magazines) and even a light machine gun size 50 round prototype. It was also developed in a decent range of calibres; Russia, Germany, Italy and Austria and Switzerland all tested it, and as a result, though the only surviving copies are in 6.5x52mm Carcanno and 7.62x53mm Mauser, we know for certain models in 7.62x54mmR and 8x56mm Mannlicher. Which makes it even more of a mystery why Dice decided to keep its variants so stale instead of going for the obvious good variant picks because basically with how much stuff is unknown you can credibly make stuff up.

So, i suggest we completely rework the gun; in its current stage, there is simply no working with it. Give it a 20-round magazine, and it makes the SL obsolete. Increase its rate of fire, and it will be too dumpy. Give it more damage, and it is completely broken or gets a meaningless buff based on how much it is.

So my suggestion is this: Makes its main version a burst fire gun. Fast, low damage relative to the rest of the class, but still requiring a disciplined trigger finger to keep under control (Due to it basically being a super MP18 experimental). So, its factory version and its trench version are 20/25 round magazine burst fire guns with its realistic rate of fire behind it (A blazing 800 rounds per minute. Upper limit is somewhere in the 900 range), but very, very low damage relative to the rest of its class; only 19/21 max damage and 16.5 end damage. It only needs 2 bursts to take someone down, and is very consistent in this respect, with of course noticable burst delays in between, preferably bringing its effective rate of fire back to the 600 rpm minute if not less. Its main death knell is of course a 4 stage stripper clip reload due to it retaining its fixed magazine; still, it would give the weapon a very unique niche to fill and be a truly unique addition to the game.

Its optical variant will be converted to an experimental variant; this one is chambered is 7.62mm Russian, has the short 10 round magazine but fires fully automatic at 400 rounds per minute with a damage model of 33-28, making it a very, very consistent 4 shot kill; still not certain on whether it retains its normal optic or a marksman scope; but this gun would be the dedicated close-mid range option; while clearly outclassed in close quarters by the dedicated CQB selfloaders, it wins on pure consistency in the midrange; it has a clearly defined niche where it wins out over the entirity of its class, and past that range its full-auto function cannot really be exploited.



So, what are you guys thoughts. Now, I know some of you are off the opinion that this weapon doesn't have balance issues, but you see, as i have repeated 10 times already: That isn't the issue. It not having a balance issue is irrelevant when it is completely unappealing while only having to compete against literally 6 other weapons. Every weapon must have its place in the game; its clear and undeniable appeal; a playstyle that fits with it, and if it doesn't, its a waste of bloody disk space. Wherever the option exists to diversify the weapon selection internally, it should be taken.



EDIT: My current stance is as follows:

Quoted


As for the Cei.....

Well, I did throw in the air my opinion that the variant system should be part of the customization screen to decrease bloating considerably especially if DLC weapons get variants too and it would be disappointing if it wasn't the case , with the first purchase allowing you to get one of the variants along with the standard variant; in this system, every gun that currently has a factory variant would get an additional variant, so the Cei could keep its current things but get an Experimental variant (well strictly speaking this gun never left the prototype stage really, though it has many experimental versions for different army trials). This variant would be chambered in 8mm mannlicher, (though realisticly it would be inverted) have slower muzzle velocity and a lot less damage, but it would have 20 rounds (still fixed) and a very fast burst fire, as advertised in this thread. It would also allow the tier 10 weapons to get their much needed variants, along with the infantry M1903 which people are upset about isn't in the game, a Trench .35 and other guns.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "colers" (Nov 16th 2016, 11:25am)


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Monday, November 14th 2016, 10:58pm

I don't see what is wrong with the current Cei?

It's got 3 hit kill close up dropping off to 4 hit kill further out.

It has the option of full auto.

Next to the Auto .35 and the 1907, the Cei is probably one of the strongest choices for CQB Medics.



If you are unable to use a 5 round mag on the Auto .35 well, you can pick up the Cei Rigotti.

If you do not like the low minDamage of the 1907, you can pick up the Cei Rigotti.



What I see here is basically let's get rid of what makes the Auto .35 interesting and balanced.

The 1906 is also an eternal 3 shot kill and is pretty much a longer range version of the Auto .35 that is clip-fed instead of mag-fed. With a better fire rate too.
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Monday, November 14th 2016, 11:28pm

Now, I fully expect the Auto .35 to get 50 max damage

No way that happens, it would be completely broken.

The only way a 2 hit kill semi rifle would fit in with the others is if it had half the RoF. At a three hit kill you have two pauses between shots, and at a two hit kill you have one. To maintain the same TTK, that means that pause needs to be twice as long.

The Model 8 already has one of the better TTKs in the game. 2 hit kill at 360 rpm would be absolutely broken.

2 hit kill at 180 rpm could work, but I seriously doubt there will be any massive reworks to existing weapons.
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  • "colers" started this thread

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Monday, November 14th 2016, 11:30pm

I don't see what is wrong with the current Cei?

It's got 3 hit kill close up dropping off to 4 hit kill further out.

It has the option of full auto.

Next to the Auto .35 and the 1907, the Cei is probably one of the strongest choices for CQB Medics.



If you are unable to use a 5 round mag on the Auto .35 well, you can pick up the Cei Rigotti.

If you do not like the low minDamage of the 1907, you can pick up the Cei Rigotti.



What I see here is basically let's get rid of what makes the Auto .35 interesting and balanced.

The 1906 is also an eternal 3 shot kill and is pretty much a longer range version of the Auto .35 that is clip-fed instead of mag-fed. With a better fire rate too.



First of all, have you used the Auto .35 because it also has a fixed mag loaded with a stripper clip.

And its not getting rid of what makes the .35 interesting and balanced, as said, the Auto will probably give in to community demand and get 52.5 maximum damage, which puts it at a CLEAR advantage against all other CQB rifles if you have the trigger finger and accuracy to use it, just like the Selbstlader 1906 will most likely get a rate of fire buff (given its shared cardridge will preclude it from getting a damage buff) and gain its own efficiency there


Once again i am petty baffled at how half the people here are oblivious to how badly having only 10, or even 5 rounds in your gun affects the usability for most people. Yes, agreed, we need some of these weapon; a good skill cannon to allow you to vary off standard gunplay. Thats important to keep stuff interesting. You are putting forward the argument of versatility, but as a said, it just loses out on that area so badly due to its reload time and ammo capacity; so, why not actually take a chance to take a bland, uninteresting weapon and turn it into something extremely unique? Why just keep it mediocre when we already have a shallow weapon pool? Should we not take whatever option to diversify that we have?

Once again, I have to repeat that it doesn't fit its current role well; if you think mostly long range, you take the Selbstlader 1916 or mondragon sniper. If you think close range, the SL 07 and .25 are broadly your best options. If you really want something versatile that allows you to adapt to the situation (and due to the stats of the SL 07 and .25, that means you intend on consistently engaging at ranges past 25m, else you'd be better off with the CQB rifles), you'd be mad to pick a Cei over a Mondragon Storm, which still performs admirably in CQB, but is miles and leagues ahead in mid range and long range, with midrange being by far the most important stat for a versatility weapon. Putting its hipfire and rate of fire benefits on the scale with the Mondragon's midrange efficiency will make the Mondragon win in most cases. So, in whatever playstyle you find yourself, you have a more ideal option than the Cei, so unless you want to challenge yourself, you won't pick it.



Consequently, nobody does. Nobody ever touches the Cei again after they unlocked the other rifles. If you see a Cei, its almost always in the hands of a rank 6 medic.






But once again: Why not? Why not take the chance to diversify the weapon selection by taking a weapon that is currently fairly bland and uninteresting, and give it unique features and a niche. Not only would it create a more diverse game experience, it would also be closer to the reality of the Cei.


I find myself repeating this a lot, but: Balance isn't the only thing that counts. If your game is perfectly balanced but the weapon line up is mostly uninteresting, you still have a game design issue. That which is unappealing is every bit as bad as that which is unbalanced. Especially if it is done so unnecessarily


Now, I fully expect the Auto .35 to get 50 max damage

No way that happens, it would be completely broken.

The only way a 2 hit kill semi rifle would fit in with the others is if it had half the RoF. At a three hit kill you have two pauses between shots, and at a two hit kill you have one. To maintain the same TTK, that means that pause needs to be twice as long.

The Model 8 already has one of the better TTKs in the game. 2 hit kill at 360 rpm would be absolutely broken.

2 hit kill at 180 rpm could work, but I seriously doubt there will be any massive reworks to existing weapons.


Aside from it being besides the point off this thread since this is merely a projection of how Dice will go about it, based on their game design constrictions , past record and community demand, I think you are greatly underestimating how much leeway only having a 5 round magazine gives you on buffing a weapon. Perhaps it would require a RoF nerf, perhaps merely decreasing its max damage area would work. But I personally don't doubt a max-damage buff will come (since a min-damage buff is nonsensical due to obvious reasons). Personally, I don't think many people will compain about the gun if it got buffed, since it would require great skill and trigger discipline in order to use. Granted, Marbleduck will most likely wipe entire servers with how well he handles this gun, but for most people it will be a skillrun to use; a weapon they take out only if the standard gunplay has grown stale. A 5 round mag along with punishing reload times would require a player to constantly control their engagement distances and place every shot well. It is easily countered and will not save you in a pinch. The internal restrictions of such a weapon would allow it to have quite a bit of "oompfh". I doubt we will see anyone cry "oh its so OP", because still, you require 40% accuracy consistently in all your engagements and if you dip below that for a second, your sidearm is your only hope. Its challenging, but rewarding.


Also, 2 hit kill at 180? Mate, that would make it basically a shitty revolver in CQB. It at least has to be a clear winner over side-arms, else its better to just do a side-arm run instead and hold back a Selbstlader for long range.

This post has been edited 4 times, last edit by "colers" (Nov 14th 2016, 11:45pm)


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Monday, November 14th 2016, 11:53pm

I agree, for me despite all that statistical evidence telling me that it has the best TTK from range x to y, the shooting mechanics ruin it for me. This counts for most medic rifles, but especially for the Rigotti. Despite it working nice on paper, it does not work for me.

You need a 30% to 40% accuracy with that rifle. In BF4 with no suppression and more intuitive shooting mechanics my DMRs ranged between 23 and 27%, and I did way better. Then killing more than one person per mag is also pretty improbable to impossible. Then you have that awful reload, which is authentic, but a huge drawback.
The stats are also not very overwhelming. I stand by it, as far as Medic weapons go the three hit kill rifles are in the lead.

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Tuesday, November 15th 2016, 12:03am

Once again i am petty baffled at how half the people here are oblivious to how badly having only 10, or even 5 rounds in your gun affects the usability for most people.


If a 5 round mag is such a problem, then the Martini-Henry must be the worst weapon in the game.

Magazine capcities globally have been reduced. High capacity weapons have other traits to offset their bigger magazines.

The Auto .35 has the best TTK for SLRs. It's also right behind the Automatico.

You will win almost any CQB engagement you come across. The disadvantage is that you are confined to 1v1s.

you'd be mad to pick a Cei over a Mondragon Storm, which still performs admirably in CQB, but is miles and leagues ahead in mid range and long range,


Are you seriously pointing out that the Cei Rigotti, a CQB SLR, loses to the Mondragon, the longest range SLR, at longer ranges?

The Mondragon is not even close to being "admirable" in CQB. It quite clearly loses to the Auto .35 and Cei Rigotti.

Nobody ever touches the Cei again after they unlocked the other rifles. If you see a Cei, its almost always in the hands of a rank 6 medic.


Funny that since quite a few redditors complain about the Cei being overpowered.

Also weird that the Cei Rigotti is my second most used Medic rifle and 5th used overall.
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Tuesday, November 15th 2016, 12:19am

Aside from it being besides the point off this thread since this is merely a projection of how Dice will go about it, based on their game design constrictions and past record, I think you are greatly underestimating how much leeway only having a 5 round magazine gives you on buffing a weapon. Perhaps it would require a RoF nerf, perhaps merely decreasing its max damage area would work. But I personally don't doubt a max-damage buff will come (since a min-damage buff is nonsensical due to obvious reasons). Personally, I don't think many people will compain about the gun if it got buffed, since it would require great skill and trigger discipline in order to use. Granted, Marbleduck will most likely wipe entire servers with how well he handles this gun, but for most people it will be a skillrun to use; a weapon they take out only if the standard gunplay has grown stale. A 5 round mag along with punishing reload times would require a player to constantly control their engagement distances and place every shot well. It is easily countered and will not save you in a pinch. The internal restrictions of such a weapon would allow it to have quite a bit of "oompfh"

The Model 8 .35 is already my favorite weapon in the game, and 2nd most used only because I've been grinding support for the C93 to pair with it. (both 360 rpm)

Bandages let you reset your health during the reload, which means you can turn every fight into a series of 1v1s, and the Model 8 is the best 1v1 weapon in the game at mid range.

If you don't like to play that way, you don't have to use it. The Cei Rigotti is a nice alternative that trades 60 rpm for 5 more rounds. The only major advantage the Mondragon has over the Cei is the 3 hit kill at long range, but this comes at another hit to RPM.

And while the 60rpm step between the Model 8 and the Cei, or the 42rpm step between the Cei and Mondragon may sound small, these are big differences since fire rates for the whole class are relatively low compared to previous game's ARs.

The rate of fire difference between the Model 8 (359), Cei/M1907/1906 (299), Mondragon (257), and M1916 (224) is like the difference between the AEK (900), M416 (750), QBZ (650), and M60 (570) in BF4.

If you aren't taking advantage of the RoF of the fast self loaders, yes, they'll be straight up worse than the Mondragon. But that's a problem with the user, not the weapon. Shoot faster. Or keep using the slower rifles if they work for you. That's why there are options.


And I seriously doubt there will be any major reworks of weapons based on past actions. There was huge community demand for changing the RoF of the BF4 G36 from 650 to 750. It didn't happen because new RoF means making a new sound.

Your proposed changes to the Cei would require a new sound, a new model for an alternate magazine, splitting the magazine off of the existing model, new bullet and stripper clip models for any new calibers, and possibly new animations. That's a ton of work.
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Tuesday, November 15th 2016, 12:25am

If you don't like to play that way, you don't have to use it.


I find it very strange that the complaint about a specialized option is that it is too specialized.

And somehow alternative options like the Cei Rigotti or the M1907 are completely ignored.

Indeed, if you are unable or unwilling to use a 359 RPM 5 round mag, you have other options like a 299 RPM 10 round mag.
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Tuesday, November 15th 2016, 12:53am

Now, I fully expect the Auto .35 to get 50 max damage and the Selbstlader to get a rate of fire buff and perhaps be turned into a marksman variant


There is a 100% chance that the Auto .35 will never get 50 max damage.

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Tuesday, November 15th 2016, 1:53am

I definitely agree in concept that the Cei is very bleh. It's not "good-average", it's "bland-average. Which is bad.

I really want to like Medic, but I just find it hard to like any of the rifles at all; all their cons are far more significant than their pros in nearly every case to me. I use the Rem 8 .35 (apart from liking the look/etc) simply because it annoys me the least when using it. It's the best out of a bunch of not-so-great options. I can't say the other weapon classes are much better in this regard; weapons in general seem too restricting for any benefits they have or niches they fill. There's very little I actually want to use.
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