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21

Monday, November 7th 2016, 9:51pm

Now this is starting to be fun.
1)In BF3 and BF4, I played maybe a dozen rounds of Normal mode, the rest was always hardcore. I dislike the 3D spotting, minimap, and auto healing, and also the lack of FF means people just spray without worrying about hitting friendlies.

2)I won't make too strong an argument about which mode requires more skill, because it's largely just opinion vs. opinion, but I can say that every time I play a round of Normal I feel it's so much easier to dominate the gunplay just from having constant reticle. Having no reticle in HC definitely gave me better accuracy, it improved my natural aim.

I understand it's largely a matter of preference, there really shouldn't be too much discussion about which is "better" or "more skillful". 3)I prefer HC and I can't wait to see it in BF1.

I never played Classic much in BF4, perhaps that would have been even better, 4)but I know I generally dislike the Normal mode features because of the advantages I feel they give other players. The constant reticle and 3D spotting means people with terrible aim or terrible situational awareness can aim more easily at me and can see the dorito over my head when they've done nothing to earn it, like after I've been spotted by a sniper 300 yards away, the blind medic 20 yards from me gets to see my dorito. That bothers me.

5)I would save if you have bad aim, or bad situational awareness, the reticle, minimap, and 3D spotting make up for that in Normal mode.
1+3)Well, that's called your personal opinion - I have nothing against it and HC mode players in general, everybody plays that game mode what he likes.
2)On distances, where hipfire is effective - hip sight would not make much sense, while on medium distances most of guns would have too much hipfire spread. It's not a Counter-Strike, where is no hipfire/ADS system, except for sniper rifles. Lacking of sight would make CS much harder.
So dominating from constant reticle? Definetely not in this game. Reticle actually helps, but very little.
4+5)But how? If you have bad aim, which contains spread/recoil control - you enemy:
a)run away
b)turn around and kill you

Because in HC mode you kill enemies faster and you're need less amount of bullets to kill - enemy has less amount of time to turn around and kill you. About aim skill requirement:
-in BF3/BF4 on normal you need a headshot from bolt-action past ~13m to score a kill on 100% health guy - otherwise he would just run away to cover with 59-99% of health
-on HC until 150m you just need to hit his body, except limbs and, at least on 100m you'll OSK enemy in limbs and body with "defensive" perk

How do you think, which is easier: hit enemy's head on 100m or hit any part of body? Hit enemy 2 times with SCAR-H and 3 times with ACE 23 on 20m or 4 times with SCAR-H and 5 times with ACE 23?
With 2-3 bullets you can just forget about spread increase mechanic and nearly not compensate recoil at all. With requierement of 4-5 hits you HAVE to compensate recoil and manage your burst. Otherwise, you'll end up with wounded enemy and empty mag.

Sorry, but trying to convince good players that HC is more skill-required than normal mode is a bad idea. If HC is more skill-required - why most of good players play normal mode?
Sorry for my bad english - it's not my native language and I have difficulties with acquiring speaking/writing practice in my country. If I accidently insult you or say something wrong - I'm sorry, you can feel free to correct me.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "kazei009" (Nov 7th 2016, 9:59pm)


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22

Monday, November 7th 2016, 10:46pm

You kinda ignored and glossed over #5 entirely. I'd say situational awareness is every bit as important as accuracy, if not moreso. If you don't know the enemy is there, you won't even shoot at them. Being tagged with a dorito by someone outside engagement range so that some previously unaware player can see you in a dark corner or behind a bush and just fire at the dorito is pretty frustrating.

I agreed it's just a matter of opinions already. I'm simply stating my opinion for why I prefer HC, #5 being chiefly the summation of my reasons.

As for why I was dominating in Normal mode when I switched over, I also had the feeling that maybe I was just facing a lot of new players since new players are more likely to jump into Normal mode rather than HC. That probably had a big impact on my relative success.

To your final question, why more good players play normal mode than HC mode, that's speculative, you can't prove that.

This post has been edited 3 times, last edit by "dopestar667" (Nov 7th 2016, 10:54pm)


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Tuesday, November 8th 2016, 12:24am

you can't prove that.
Competetive tournaments are played on Normal mode with some tweaks. Pro players low-skilled?

Also, about #5 - you can spot enemies only which you can see. Gadgets spot them only on minimap and on limited radius. If somebody spotted you - he saw you, so while on normal mode his teammate tracked and killed you - on HC he would track and kill you by himself. The only difference is that you can hide from him visually, on HC, but you should note, than "dorito" is not forever, so if you run for some time behind visual cover - you can hide too.
One thing, which I don't like and would agree with you: commander mode - I was trying to avoid servers in BF4, where commander are present - small maps become stupid grenade fight, since you can't flank enemy, because you'll being spotted on minimap all the time. On bigger maps UAV spam can be frustrating too. Not to mention situations, where you team has no commander or he is... well... not a good commander, while enemy has a commander - I ragequited a lot from these matches. I'm so happy that BF1 don't contain it. In BF2 it was way more balanced, since commander was an ordinary player too, despite he had some more powerful tools than his BF4 collegue.
If you don't know the enemy is there, you won't even shoot at them. Being tagged with a dorito by someone outside engagement range so that some previously unaware player can see you in a dark corner or behind a bush and just fire at the dorito is pretty frustrating.
You can still see and hear player too. Actually, with a good sound system you can kill a lot of guys, who are trying to sneak up to you. Also, gaming monitors has pretty high gamma and dynamic contrast feature, so dark corners are not so dark. What I'm trying to say, that even if 3D-spotting system is preset on normal mode - it doesn't mean that you cannot use only eyes and ears against enemies. On normal mode I don't spot players that are close to me(because I'll waste precious time and may fail instead of getting a kill), I only spot players, which I can't kill right now(easiest example - recon at distance) - yes, they become "dorito-tagged", but the same rule work against me - sitting in the same place for too long leads to be spotted and killed. On HC you may take LMG+Suppressor+Bipod and only very good or lucky player(or angry admin with banhammer) can find you BEFORE you start shooting him.
From my experience from HC: I was more effective when playing passive than agressive.

So, let's summarise which skills are rellevant for HC:
-response time
-map knowledge
-basic weapon setup knowlege, for example suppressor makes you harder to find and low-powered scopes don't produce glint

which are irrelevant in HC, but very important in Normal Mode:
-accuracy - you don't need to land headshots on targets before 100m with most of bolt-action snipers
-recoil control - most weapons kill in very short bursts
-burst lenght control - for 2-3 bullets spread increase mechanic is not really matters
-advanced weapon setup knowledge - in HC attachments have much less impact on gun perfomance, angled grip+suppessor are nearly the ultimate choice for most weapons
-minimap reading - It's simply don't exist in HC

So why HC is requiring more skill than Normal Mode, when it requires less skills?
Sorry for my bad english - it's not my native language and I have difficulties with acquiring speaking/writing practice in my country. If I accidently insult you or say something wrong - I'm sorry, you can feel free to correct me.

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Tuesday, November 8th 2016, 1:13am

basic weapon setup knowlege, for example suppressor makes you harder to find

actually, just yesterday i played some hc rounds to make getting the bf1 1911 skin faster playing in low-count matches(iirc most were 3v3) and that's not true at all, i knew that maong those 3 people 2 were using the m60 and one with a suppressor, remembering how spawning works in tdm, i realized where the enemies might have spawned but still didn't know where exactly, as soon as i heard the most little sound, in this case the suppressor on the m60, i was instantly capable of pinpointing the enemy's location and kill him flawlessly, the suppressor on most weapons isn't that useful, at least not when you have a good audio setup, and mind you, i also use wartapes in bf4.
i was also able to tell were people on my team spawned or where exactly some enemies were by pressing M and looking at the big map, there might nont be a minimap in hardcore, but the map, along with 2d spotting still exists, in fact some times i was able to kill people by using strictly the big map and judging were they would have popped out of cover in a few seconds thanks to directional 2D spotting(even without concentrating on sound, i was able to not get flanked countless times this way).
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Tuesday, November 8th 2016, 1:41am

basic weapon setup knowlege, for example suppressor makes you harder to find

actually, just yesterday i played some hc rounds to make getting the bf1 1911 skin faster playing in low-count matches(iirc most were 3v3) and that's not true at all, i knew that maong those 3 people 2 were using the m60 and one with a suppressor, remembering how spawning works in tdm, i realized where the enemies might have spawned but still didn't know where exactly, as soon as i heard the most little sound, in this case the suppressor on the m60, i was instantly capable of pinpointing the enemy's location and kill him flawlessly, the suppressor on most weapons isn't that useful, at least not when you have a good audio setup, and mind you, i also use wartapes in bf4.
i was also able to tell were people on my team spawned or where exactly some enemies were by pressing M and looking at the big map, there might nont be a minimap in hardcore, but the map, along with 2d spotting still exists, in fact some times i was able to kill people by using strictly the big map and judging were they would have popped out of cover in a few seconds thanks to directional 2D spotting(even without concentrating on sound, i was able to not get flanked countless times this way).
I particulary agree with you, but "harder to find" not equals to "makes hiding very easy". Also, 3vs3 games are not same as at least 16vs16, where suppressor makes your shots less attractive than your teammate "tratatatata"(yeah, dat Heavy evil smile from TF2). My point was that suppressor attachment has more impact on weapon performance than other barrel mods.
Sorry for my bad english - it's not my native language and I have difficulties with acquiring speaking/writing practice in my country. If I accidently insult you or say something wrong - I'm sorry, you can feel free to correct me.

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Tuesday, November 8th 2016, 1:59am

Normal puts more emphasis on gunplay skills, HC puts more emphasis on strategic skills. Neither is "more skilled" because you can't judge them using only one skill set, that's incredibly disingenuous.

I personally prefer HC, considerably so. It has the sort of skill/etc requirements that I like. And I play console without aim assist, I know I'm good enough at aiming (bursting, etc) to say that without it just being me covering my own ass for lack of aim skill.


HC is slower paced, yes, but that doesn't make it campy. I generally avoided Op Locker in any mode, but if I was going to play it, HC was always better. Why? Friendly fire. The amount of explosive (and regular bullet) spam is dramatically reduced in HC; this is most obvious in a setting like Locker, but it's everywhere else as well. If your teammate is in a room with an enemy, you can't just toss in a grenade or go in guns blazing with zero consequences. You can't just spam explosives into a contested objective area either. You have to be smart about it.

That's the kind of thing HC emphasizes. Normal renders much of these decisions irrelevant, or has features that do your job for you. I'll accept that gunplay is much "easier" in HC, but most "tactical"/intel-based type elements are much "easier" in Normal. You can argue that in HC gunplay "plays itself", but you're just trading one part of the game "playing itself" for another.

There is no right answer, just which elements you prefer to focus on.
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Tuesday, November 8th 2016, 2:14am

where suppressor makes your shots less attractive than your teammate "tratatatata"(yeah, dat Heavy evil smile from TF2)

dude, if in normal mode hearing a suppressor makes me forget everything to start hunting down that sound, i'm fairly sure in hardcore that feeling is just incremented by 10 times.

@BleedingUranium
so you're saying that if classic mode had teamkills(can't remember if it already does) that would be inarguably the best mode?
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bf4
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23rd M320FB user on pc(13/05/16)
rush mode score RANK:2794 TOP:2% OUT OF:215398
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bf3
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Tuesday, November 8th 2016, 2:24am

@BleedingUranium
so you're saying that if classic mode had teamkills(can't remember if it already does) that would be inarguably the best mode?


Pretty much! ^^

A couple of the details of Classic have changed a few times, it had FF on at one point but I think doesn't now, but generally speaking yes, Classic is the best of both modes combined.
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Tuesday, November 8th 2016, 6:20am

Why do you use War Tapes? I think that is the worst audio option available.



dunno about bf1, but in bf4 if you used the full map you could use 2d spotting.

If I recall correctly, there was a minimap for Hardcore in “Battlefield 3”. I hope it will be the same situation for Hardcore in “Battlefield 1”. What was great about the full size maps in both games is that they only cover the bottom left corner of your screen even when expanded, which means that you can use that quite extensively. In “Battlefield 4”, the full size map covered your entire screen, which made it impossible for me to use well in Hardcore. I have never even noticed the 2D spotting for one thing. Hopefully the Flare Gun gadget and the spotting via Q button can remain useful, but only when you are looking at the map.



I would argue that the faster TTK in HC actually requires to you be a more skillful player in order to be successful at it.

The faster time to kill all by itself definitely encourages slight differences in the skill required. I would agree with you in that one does not need to be as accurate in Hardcore, considering I tend to do better there when getting the drop on opponents I see first. However, I think there is a flaw in your argument when suggesting that Normal mode is reminiscent of a typical “Call of Duty” experience due to players having more health in general. After all, it is the “Call of Duty” series that has the faster time to kill in the first place, so allowing a “Battlefield” game to have it be similar is in fact an imitation in my opinion.



HC is slower paced, yes, but that doesn't make it campy. I generally avoided Op Locker in any mode, but if I was going to play it, HC was always better. Why? Friendly fire. The amount of explosive (and regular bullet) spam is dramatically reduced in HC; this is most obvious in a setting like Locker, but it's everywhere else as well. If your teammate is in a room with an enemy, you can't just toss in a grenade or go in guns blazing with zero consequences. You can't just spam explosives into a contested objective area either. You have to be smart about it.

This is where we differ I suppose. If there is one thing I am decent at, it is throwing grenades. I always end up using grenades much more frequently and tend to be more effective with them in Hardcore because the Impact Grenade is so much more deadly when enemies only have a maximum of 60 health.

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Tuesday, November 8th 2016, 7:25am

Why do you use War Tapes? I think that is the worst audio option available.

because in bf4 with hifi i can't hear anything other gunfire and footsteps, and you might say "and isn't that the best?" if i was playing rainbow six siege maybe, but this is battlefield, and i want to hear as many things as possible, sure , i may be hearing TOO MANY things, which can impact on the sound quality of some things, but i can make out the sounds and the quality of the sounds i care the most feels better like this.
in bf1 large speakers is the best after setting up everything from that topic a week or 2 ago and wartapes clearly feels of a way lower quality, to the point of noise crack which i didn't feel happening in bf4.

also... i'm not sure, but for all th etime i played cod back in the day, i always saw people playing hardcore, maybe it's because there wasn't promod on console, but that's what those i played with played, only after some time playing bc2 and bf3 i understood that normal was a much better experience for me.
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bf4
on 13/05/2016
23rd M320FB user on pc(13/05/16)
rush mode score RANK:2794 TOP:2% OUT OF:215398
obliteration mode scoreRANK:994 TOP:1% OUT OF:159466
handgun medals RANK:2236 TOP:2% OUT OF:143874
longest headshot RANK:9512 TOP:4% OUT OF:257589
recon score RANK:10871 TOP:4% OUT OF:274899
general score per minute RANK:10016 TOP:4% OUT OF:294774

bf3
31/3/2012 4:58:

Headshot distance RANK:493* TOP:0%
Revives per assault minute RANK: 6019 TOP: 3%
Headshots / kill percentage RANK:25947 TOP:13%
MVP ribbons RANK:18824 TOP:11%

*= 6 if we not count the EOD BOT headshots

@kataklism

ARGUMENT DESTROYED 100

ENEMY KILLED [REASON] JSLICE20 100


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