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  • "Jais" started this thread

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Friday, October 21st 2016, 1:41pm

The lack of content and BF1's longevity

Before I start this discussion I want to make a disclaimer of sorts:

1. BF1 is incredibly well-designed with tight gameplay and it is so far pretty well balanced (though I do have some issues).
2. The people here on Symthic are not representative of the average Battlefield gamer. Yes, we play the same game as the rest, but if you visit Symthic you probably don't consider yourself a 'casual BF1 player'.

Now, I've only played for a few hours so far (I can't really enjoy playing until they've fixed the toggle zoom bug), and yet I've already unlocked every main weapon for the support class (my most played class). If I compare this to BF4 I am a bit surprised as I haven't even unlocked every weapon in that game yet, with several hundreds of hours worth of playtime. There are no attachments to unlock for the weapons in BF1, no optics, no grips and every weapon for a given class (except one) can be unlocked incredibly quickly with only rank 3.

Is this a problem? Not in the case of the game's gameplay. In fact, it can be easily argued that the sooner you have every unlock available, the better the gameplay is for everyone. Give every player the tools he or she needs so they can start playing properly.

However, I do think it is a pretty radical departure from BF3 and BF4's formula for keeping players engaged in the long term, and I am bit worried about the longevity of BF1. If you want to attract and keep a big playerbase in FPS (and basically all games) these days you need one or two things:

1. A focus on the competitive aspect, where players can grind up their skill number and progress through tiers of rank. See: CS:GO, Overwatch, Starcraft
2. A focus on unlocking content, where players can grind away at unlocking new gear, weapons, attachments, skins etc. See: BF3/4, Destiny, Borderlands, basically every MMO ever

(For those who are familiar with motivation theory, you basically need an extrinsic motivation to keep playing (an external goal/reward to strive for) in addition to a core of intrinsic motivation (solid gameplay that is simply fun to play) if you want to keep both the casual and the hardcore gamer entertained.)

I don't see Battlefield 1 as betting big on either of these 'grind aspects'. The competitive side of the game has always been niche, and until DICE decides to really place a big emphasis on skill-based matchmaking it's not going to take off. In addition, it can be argued that the core gameplay design of Battlefield games is simply too hard to leverage into a huge competitive scene (64 players, very asymmetric balancing etc.). As for the content grind, I've already outlined that I feel it is lacking. Again, this does not mean that it makes BF1 a bad game - far from it. But I do feel it has the potential to turn BF1 into another Battlefront, with a dwindling playerbase. Battlefront failed to keep a large playerbase for other reasons as well, but the unlock grind was also simply not there. In BF1 you have few weapons already (six different ones for each class), with little in the way of customization and some questionable balancing decisions that serve to rule out certain weapons completely (The 5 round Medic weapons are honestly never going to be picked, and players are likely going to be flocking to the Selbstlader and Automatic .8 Extended).

Compare this to BF4 where you have 16 different assault rifles that can be further customized into thousands of different combinations, and where players often wanted to keep using a weapon for at least a couple of hundred kills so they could unlock all attachments. This gear grind and attachment experimentation incentive is simply not present in BF1, and although I hope that in a year's time I can look back at this thread and see that I was very wrong, I fear that that won't be case.

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Friday, October 21st 2016, 1:45pm

The fact that "Battlefield 1" is not about modern combat makes me fear for its longevity. However, if sales figures reach those of "Battlefield 3" (which was approximately double that of sales for "Battlefield 4"), then this game will not die off any time soon.

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Friday, October 21st 2016, 2:04pm

Is there likely to be as much dlc as wit BF3 and BF4? I love the maps in BF1 but it could certainly use a few more, and the gun situation is pretty bad. I really want this game to do well, but I can't see it drawing more casual players, since each weapon fills such a niche. Then again, bolt actions are powerful now, so at least the sniper try hards will always be around to keep servers populated :P

  • "Jais" started this thread

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Friday, October 21st 2016, 2:05pm

The fact that "Battlefield 1" is not about modern combat makes me fear for its longevity. However, if sales figures reach those of "Battlefield 3" (which was approximately double that of sales for "Battlefield 4"), then this game will not die off any time soon.
As for it not being a modern combat game, DICE knew full well what they were in for when they went for the WW1 setting: few guns and almost no attachments. Now, knowing this, I am very surprised to find that they didn't try to make up for this deficiency in other areas. Where are the multitude of player skin customizations? Why can't I choose a different head, helmet, skin color or coat for my soldier model? Why can't I grind a thousand kills to unlock a special and cool "Mastery" skin for my weapon?

As for the sales, remember that Battlefront sold very well, and it is already all but dead on PC (and the numbers for the consoles are a fraction of BF4's). The same can easily happen to BF1: there's a huge hype built up for the game and it is undoubtedly going to sell well, but this doesn't guarantee a long-lasting playerbase.

As a side note, the Call of Duty games get around the gear/skill grind by 'resetting' the content each cycle: they work as sports games and a new title is released every year. Battlefield games have always lasted longer, however (BF4 lasted 3 years and is still doing well).

Miffyli

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Friday, October 21st 2016, 2:08pm

A long-term game wouldn't be good anyways, we need to get more money by killing off games quick and producing new ones.

-EA

For reals: I can't throw any guesses, because it depends quite a bit on how EA/DICE will keep treating the game: Will it get good patches, will it get patches, etc.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

VincentNZ

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Friday, October 21st 2016, 2:08pm

Yeah I would agree with Jais sentiment. The progress is pretty fast, and in the end you are unlocking the same weapon over and over again, instead of choosing one and then outfitting it to your needs. This creates the impression of bloating the content to create an illusion of more content.

I find that quite discouraging, especially since everything is hidden behind menus and an interface that is needlessly complex and uncomfortable to say the least, and a stats tracker that does not stack many stats at all, so there is no real feedback you can gain from your rounds or your general performance.

I also do not know why they outsourced the UI in the first place but not having integral stuff finished is quite a disappointment especially since we had a very well working alternative with battlelog. Stuff like this makes people lose interest in a game fast.

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Friday, October 21st 2016, 2:22pm

As for it not being a modern combat game, DICE knew full well what they were in for when they went for the WW1 setting: few guns and almost no attachments. Now, knowing this, I am very surprised to find that they didn't try to make up for this deficiency in other areas. Where are the multitude of player skin customizations? Why can't I choose a different head, helmet, skin color or coat for my soldier model? Why can't I grind a thousand kills to unlock a special and cool "Mastery" skin for my weapon?

Before more information of the game came out, I thought for sure that the rifle sling would be an available attachment to your gun and present certain effects. If there is any relatively easy change that could be made now, I wish for the option to have no bayonet on a gun to say sling in the weapon customization menu, which changes nothing from the current system of allowing the soldier to steady his weapon faster after coming out of a sprint. That would be cooler than just saying you have no bayonet attached as the text in my opinion, as well as making some sense since a soldier would tend not have a sling attached on a rifle with a bayonet meant for thrusting into enemies.

I hope for some facial customization similar to how it was done in "Star Wars Battlefront". Hopefully DICE will add it to the game in the near future.

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Friday, October 21st 2016, 2:38pm

i'll be honest: this is the first and only reason why i didn't buy battlefield 1 as soon as i could, the game feels good and snappy with both a controller and a mouse, the balance seems pretty good compared to other battlfield launches, the maps look gorgeous and play fairly well... but without unlockable attachments, i just didn't feel the wish to go insta-buy it, i love bf4, so much so that bought it on ps4 as well, but that's because you can unlock a fuckton of things, after 670 hours on pc i still didn't unlock every attachment or gun paint(i don't really care about paints, the only gun skins i'm interested to are the ones that change the geometry of the weapon -physical or artistical, like a new gun model or paints llike the awp asimov- ) and by buying it on ps4 i could just go repeat that process that i enjoyed doing so much when first playing the game, with bf1, i don't feel like i could have that kind of experience.

will this make an impact on me and other players? without a doubt, will this heavily impact the sales and playerbase of battlefield 1? i don't think so, when looking at games like rocket league, team fortress and overwatch, while there is a visible (although not prominent to sc2/cs/lol/dota levels) competitive nature to them, the grind-for-extras nature of them is very slim, because most people(like most symthicians) actually look only at the gameplay, it's the hardcore players that look into one of the 2 motivations to constantly play a game, and competitiveness can be found in anything, so people will keep playing it as long as there's variety, even if there's not much longevity.

tl;dr i don't think it will have an impact on the playerbase, but it will even out the sales in the long run rather than sell everything on launch like the other games, especially after having 2-3 consecutive miserable game launches.
"I'm just a loot whore."


stuff mostly unrelated to BF4 that interests nobody



bf4
on 13/05/2016
23rd M320FB user on pc(13/05/16)
rush mode score RANK:2794 TOP:2% OUT OF:215398
obliteration mode scoreRANK:994 TOP:1% OUT OF:159466
handgun medals RANK:2236 TOP:2% OUT OF:143874
longest headshot RANK:9512 TOP:4% OUT OF:257589
recon score RANK:10871 TOP:4% OUT OF:274899
general score per minute RANK:10016 TOP:4% OUT OF:294774

bf3
31/3/2012 4:58:

Headshot distance RANK:493* TOP:0%
Revives per assault minute RANK: 6019 TOP: 3%
Headshots / kill percentage RANK:25947 TOP:13%
MVP ribbons RANK:18824 TOP:11%

*= 6 if we not count the EOD BOT headshots

@kataklism

ARGUMENT DESTROYED 100

ENEMY KILLED [REASON] JSLICE20 100


WRITING SPREE STOPPED 500

link to full-size old avatar:
http://i.imgur.com/4X0321O.gif




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Friday, October 21st 2016, 2:48pm

tl;dr i don't think it will have an impact on the playerbase, but it will even out the sales in the long run rather than sell everything on launch like the other games, especially after having 2-3 consecutive miserable game launches.

"Battlefield Hardline", "Star Wars Battlefront", and "Mirror's Edge Catalyst" from DICE all launched without any hitches though.

Unlocking weapons through assignments is annoying to me, especially since so many were very difficult to complete. For other unlocks though such as attachments and weapon skins, I could see why people like them.

Zer0Cod3x

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Friday, October 21st 2016, 3:05pm

From what I've gathered from the community, a large part of what makes any BF game replayable are the "Battlefield moments" one can only experience in BF. To more competitive-oriented players such as myself (and probably most Symthicians) I see this as a rather shallow reason to keep playing a game, but for the largely casual-oriented community, it makes the game fun, and thus replayable.


Personally, I would love to see BF1 introduce a competitive matchmaking system. It makes perfect sense given BF1's gameplay design - heavily skill-based gunplay, major emphasis on PTFO and teamplay - and it would attract a larger, more competitive-oriented audience that traditionally would consider BF as a game for casuals. 10v10 CQ Small or 5v5 Rush infantry only would work fine.

The setup is all there, all DICE needs to do is to implement it.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.