The problem of the support class in BF1

Jais

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Monday, August 29th 2016, 5:17pm

Once again, the support class seems to be a poorly thought out grab-bag of unneeded and unviable gadgets and weapons. As far as I can tell, the developers seem to be regarding the support class as the following three aspects:

The LMG guy. Yes, one class needs to carry the LMGs in the game and the support class is the ideal candidate, here. The problem is that, from a competitive standpoint, semi-autos and bolt actions shit on LMGs from medium range and up, and even properly bipodded the LMG user is just sniper bait (as he's always been, but now sniper rifles are much easier to use).
The ammo guy. Again, someone has to carry the ammo and it's (almost) always been the support guy's main role. However, this is a thankless and often unneeded job. As anyone who has even a remote interest in the competitive scene can tell you, nobody in their right mind is going to volunteer to bring ammo to the battlefield when money or even a win is on the line - simply put, another medic or anti-tank class is that much more valuable. The "ammo guy" role is made even more redundant in BF1 since everything from horses to light tanks can now shit bullets.
The tripwire guy. This is where I get a little depressed. The support class had access to claymores in BF3 and BF4, but now DICE seems to have doubled down on this gadget and made it one of the central pillars of the support class in BF1. Why? This is a gadget which relies purely on enemy stupidity to work, feels cheap and rage-inducing to be killed by and is completely worthless from a competitive perspective. Why, DICE? Why does the support class get 3 different kinds of tripwire bombs? Who ever asked for this?

Now, there are still some gadgets that have yet to be revealed but already I can guess what they are. Mortars, and several different variations of them: normal, gas, incendiary and maybe a smoke version for good measure. Time will tell whether these mortars are effective or not, but it doesn't exactly look promising, for two reasons:

Past BF versions have been pretty shit. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that since a mortar is by definition an indirect fire weapon, it is subject to immense feelings of rage and cheapness if it gets too effective. It's a bloody fine line to cross, and so far it hasn't been a really viable gadget.
The BF1 setting. We know already the mortar isn't remotely operated (and it wouldn't make much sense in a WW1 setting anyway), so that's one strike against it. Strike two is that enemy players no longer show up on the minimap when firing their weapon. Unless DICE is completely redoing the targeting mechanic (a 3D bird's eye view?) I can't really see it being that effective.

So there we have it, the support class is now even more worthless than before. Unless DICE pulls out a miracle gadget that rivals the rocket gun, spawn beacon or revive tool in usefulness, he's yet again relegated to a competitive purgatory. But this doesn't matter, does it? Because now we have three different kinds of claymores to play with!

This post by "NoctyrneSAGA" (Monday, August 29th 2016, 6:35pm) has been deleted by user "yugas42" (Monday, August 29th 2016, 7:30pm) with the following reason: rule 5

potetr

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Monday, August 29th 2016, 6:40pm

Actually, I think the devs think of the support kit as the control/sustained fire guy. (LMGs suppress, suppression can be used as area denial)

Quoted from "Jais"

The tripwire guy. This is where I get a little depressed. The support class had access to claymores in BF3 and BF4, but now DICE seems to have doubled down on this gadget and made it one of the central pillars of the support class in BF1. Why? This is a gadget which relies purely on enemy stupidity to work, feels cheap and rage-inducing to be killed by and is completely worthless from a competitive perspective. Why, DICE? Why does the support class get 3 different kinds of tripwire bombs? Who ever asked for this?

The new versions of the tripmine will actually accomplish working as reliable area denial. Atleast the incendiary one. I think it is a clever gadget, even if it's spotted and detonated you can't run past it immediately. I wonder why they included a gas one, that seems very unreliable as many players carry gas masks.

Quoted from "Jais"

Past BF versions have been pretty shit. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that since a mortar is by definition an indirect fire weapon, it is subject to immense feelings of rage and cheapness if it gets too effective. It's a bloody fine line to cross, and so far it hasn't been a really viable gadget.

I wish they'd turn the mortar into a tool instead of a weapon. E.g. incendiary area denial. Then it could be effective without being unfun. Regarding it not being remote controlled, maybe it is now more like a launcher, instead of being a placed weapon.

Still, due to the support still being the ammo box kit, I'm not sure the situation will change from Bf4 (unless the ammo box gains some more magic powers). We'll have to wait until the game releases to know for sure, though why they wouldn't showcase it as an effective class in the beta (by including some good gadgets) I'm not sure.

Quoted from "NoctyrneSAGA"

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Quoted from "Rezal"

ammo regen pls

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When I play with it [Autoloading 8] I feel like I am batman taking out 1 after 1 baddie while they feel helpless and don't know who is talking out their mates.

Quoted from "TheSkillCommittee"

Remove 3D spotting. It’s a mechanic that rewards bad eyesight.

Quoted from "Rezal"

Wanna help your team by sneaking through enemy territory to provide spawns? THIS IS NOT TEAMWORK FGT I HOPE YOU RUN OUT OF MOTION BALLS TOO EARLY TO BE SUCCESSFUL
Wanna be Javelin squad but only have two guys? BETTER NOT GET YOUR SOFLAM KILLED FGT THIS IS NOT TEAMWORK WITHOUT A SUPPORT DUDE DROPPING AMMO ON YOU EVERY 2 MINUTES

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DICE pls

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Minor console QoL improvements
Ping Tool idea
"Wants to talk" tag for squad menu
Adding Suppression Confirmation
Spotting suggestions

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Battlefield definition
New helicopter idea
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Flow, immersion and fun in battlefield
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Why limited infinite ammo would be awesome
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NoctyrneSAGA

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Monday, August 29th 2016, 6:52pm

Quoted from "potetr"

The new versions of the tripmine will actually accomplish working as reliable area denial. Atleast the incendiary one. I think it is a clever gadget, even if it's spotted and detonated you can't run past it immediately. I wonder why they included a gas one, that seems very unreliable as many players carry gas masks.

Forcing players to hipfire while you are set up far away ADSing with a bipod seems like a really good idea.

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BleedingUranium

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Monday, August 29th 2016, 6:56pm

I definitely think you're underestimating MGs.

As for gadgets, the issue I see is the lack of a direct-fire gadget. Recon had this problem in BF4, where it's only direct, offensive gadgets were the PLD (which can only assist in damage, not damage) and C4 (which requires being far too close for the class's role). BF1 has solved this with K Bullets, giving Scout a proper offensive damage gadget that works at the class's intended range.

In BF4, Assault had the M320, Engy had launchers, Support had the XM25, but Recon was left out. Now in BF1 Support is the one left out. I'm not happy with either situation.

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potetr

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Monday, August 29th 2016, 6:58pm

Quoted from "NoctyrneSAGA"

Quoted from "potetr"

The new versions of the tripmine will actually accomplish working as reliable area denial. Atleast the incendiary one. I think it is a clever gadget, even if it's spotted and detonated you can't run past it immediately. I wonder why they included a gas one, that seems very unreliable as many players carry gas masks.

Forcing players to hipfire while you are set up far away ADSing with a bipod seems like a really good idea.

True! Forgot if forced hipfire. I guess a gas mortar would be very useful as well then.

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Things I support

Quoted from "Rezal"

ammo regen pls

Quoted from "NoctyrneSAGA"

Passive Spotting is the future!

_____

Quoted from "Skanic"

When I play with it [Autoloading 8] I feel like I am batman taking out 1 after 1 baddie while they feel helpless and don't know who is talking out their mates.

Quoted from "TheSkillCommittee"

Remove 3D spotting. It’s a mechanic that rewards bad eyesight.

Quoted from "Rezal"

Wanna help your team by sneaking through enemy territory to provide spawns? THIS IS NOT TEAMWORK FGT I HOPE YOU RUN OUT OF MOTION BALLS TOO EARLY TO BE SUCCESSFUL
Wanna be Javelin squad but only have two guys? BETTER NOT GET YOUR SOFLAM KILLED FGT THIS IS NOT TEAMWORK WITHOUT A SUPPORT DUDE DROPPING AMMO ON YOU EVERY 2 MINUTES

Quoted from "Hau_ruck"

Please post your best M1916 clips Magazines *fixed*.

DICE pls

Squadmate Healthbars in the HUD
Minor console QoL improvements
Ping Tool idea
"Wants to talk" tag for squad menu
Adding Suppression Confirmation
Spotting suggestions

Posts I should finish sometime:
Squad priority vehicle system (and anti stealing suggestion)
Scoring system flaws (and concept)
Battlefield definition
New helicopter idea
Suppression rework
Flow, immersion and fun in battlefield
Specializations: ideas and system rework
Gadget reworks and ideas
Why limited infinite ammo would be awesome
Other bitesize ideas

Cool/Useful Links (never updated)

What Makes the Best Player?
David Sirlin on Intuition
Symthic Databrowser
Battlefield 1 DeployTimes

Jais

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Monday, August 29th 2016, 7:26pm

Quoted from "NoctyrneSAGA"

Quoted from "potetr"

Forcing players to hipfire while you are set up far away ADSing with a bipod seems like a really good idea.

This assumes the player is stupid enough to trigger the tripwire bomb, as well as assuming the support guy has the patience to actually lie in wait for this to happen. It won't suddenly make the tripwire bomb a relevant gadget, but it's a cool little tactic, similar to how you can occasionally get the drop on people with the EOD bot.

marbleduck

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Monday, August 29th 2016, 7:32pm

Quoted from "Jais"

Why? This is a gadget which relies purely on enemy stupidity to work, feels cheap and rage-inducing to be killed by and is completely worthless from a competitive perspective.

It's good area denial. Placed correctly, it gives the user enough time to react to a threat, and/or advanced warning. You assume you're not going to get kills with it on good players—it will just slow them down long enough to put them in a VERY bad situation, allowing teammates or you to use primary weapons to eliminate them. Seeing the trap and avoiding it is often just as bad as running into it if you're playing against someone good.

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Monday, August 29th 2016, 7:43pm

Quoted from "Jais"

Quoted from "NoctyrneSAGA"

Quoted from "potetr"

Forcing players to hipfire while you are set up far away ADSing with a bipod seems like a really good idea.

This assumes the player is stupid enough to trigger the tripwire bomb, as well as assuming the support guy has the patience to actually lie in wait for this to happen. It won't suddenly make the tripwire bomb a relevant gadget, but it's a cool little tactic, similar to how you can occasionally get the drop on people with the EOD bot.

Not to mention that the places were tripwire traps are viable are also often places were hipfire accuracy is good enough. Tripwires aren't exactly effective in places with long sight lines.

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It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "C0llis" (Aug 30th 2016, 12:22am)

VincentNZ

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Monday, August 29th 2016, 7:56pm

I generally agree with your sentiments. I have doubts about the support class in particular, as well so far.

People always complained in BF4 that supports did not lay down ammo, yet this was such a minor issue. You could redeploy, switch kits, or just look for a darn support player who will likely drop ammo for himself at some point if he does not do it to your bidding. Still in order to run out of ammo you would have to have a killstrak of five I guess or fight several vehicles without dying. Highly unlikely for many players, even me. That said, it is even thrilling for me to try to kill more people without any ammo left in the rare occasions of not finding a box.

As for the gagdets I would not dismiss the mortar so easily, I thought it was decent in both games, but was a bit outgunned by the XM25, when used correctly, and by the Claymore as a fire and forget gagdet and the C4 which was easy to comprehend.
Is it true that you do not appear any more on the map while shooting? That is indeed a bummer and a hit for the Mortar.
I agree with the tripmine though, the Claymore was never a very interesting or game deciding gagdget, and it will not be different in BF1. Well you might force players to hipfire with the gas, but you could have killed them with the mine itself. It is a selfish gadget and will be used this way.
I do not see the team value so far though, ammo is nice, but with deaths being meaningless you can just redeploy, you do not have a way to deal with the many vehicles so far either.

I am seeing a problem with the weapon itself as well, the negative spread is a concept that is harder to grasp. The Division did it in a similar way, and created a meaningless weapon class. With 31 bullets you can not suppress enemies as good as in previous titles. Do we know yet what suppression does so far? I see the LMG at a disadvantage in close quarters and at medium to long range to BAs and maybe even the semi-autos.