Welcome to symthic forums! We would love if you'd register!
You don't have to be expert in bit baking, everyone is more than welcome to join our community.

You are not logged in.

Posts: 3,636

Date of registration
: Mar 19th 2014

Platform: Xbox One

Location: Canada

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 16

  • Send private message

141

Monday, July 11th 2016, 5:56am

For example the only reason "headshots only" sniper methodology works in games like Overwatch, TF2, Crysis, etc is because snipers are hitscan and heavily reward players who can pull off snap-aim MLG reflex headshots.


And another reason it works in other shooters is because most of those games focus on things like "snap-aim MLG reflex headshots" as what is considered skilled and done by high-level players. Battlefield is not one of those games. Aim, recoil control, bullet drop, all that stuff, sure they're factors, sure that's a part of skill, but they're far less important and significant to skill in Battlefield than strategy, tactics, positioning, movement, and selecting/using the right classes/weapons/tools/vehicles for the task at hand.

If you want some off-hand, totally arbitrary numbers that help explain this point, those sorts of shooters are 80% gunplay skill, 20% tactical skill. Battlefield is the inverse. Total bullshit numbers and an oversimplification, but this is the basic truth of the matter. The only times gunplay skills are really relevant are when you're fighting someone and both of you are in your optimal ranges (i.e. both SMGs up close, both snipers at range, both in Fighter airplanes, etc).

Gunplay skills are simply a tie-breaker.
Who Enjoys, Wins

NoctyrneSAGA

PvF 2017 Champion

(9,997)

Posts: 7,186

Date of registration
: Apr 3rd 2012

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 19

  • Send private message

142

Monday, July 11th 2016, 6:48am

For example the only reason "headshots only" sniper methodology works in games like Overwatch, TF2, Crysis, etc is because snipers are hitscan and heavily reward players who can pull off snap-aim MLG reflex headshots. I'd love that kind of high skill ceiling to exist for Battlefield sniping


I'm not entirely sure what kind of decision-making goes into aligning a + over a o so I am not sure you can call it a high skill ceiling.

It is simply a contest of physical talent that is heavily biased toward younger gamers, leaving pretty much no need to actually think.

Once + is on top of o, LMB. Very easy to do and rather unremarkable. Aside from showing that someone is able to react very quickly.

Pretty sure the skill ceiling at the point would be frame perfect shooting but that doesn't sound particularly hard.

A machine could do it because they are good at executing specific tasks very very quickly. And this is not even a case of Artificial Intelligence.

Yes, it requires the computer pretty much no actual thinking to execute this so-called high skill ceiling shooting.





Speaking of Articial Intelligence, a very interesting article appeared a few days ago.

A privately developed dogfighting AI has been undefeated in multiple simulation battles against former and currently active Air Force pilots.

WITH HANDICAPS IN TECHNICAL SPECS on its aircraft.

The secret to this AI's success isn't frame perfect shooting (although this is likely going to be a part of it).

The success is due mainly to its very powerful decision-making engine (which has been the Holy Grail of AI research for a long time).

It knows based on your behavior what your next move is going to be. Then it knows how to perfectly counter it. This is the pinnacle of combat.

It knows what you are going to do before you do it. This is the high skill ceiling everyone should be aspiring to. Frame Perfect Shooting is just a stepping stone along the way.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "NoctyrneSAGA" (Jul 11th 2016, 6:55am)


Posts: 338

Date of registration
: Jan 31st 2014

Platform: PC

Location: NZ

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 5

  • Send private message

143

Monday, July 11th 2016, 6:54am

strategy, tactics, positioning, movement, and selecting/using the right classes/weapons/tools/vehicles for the task at hand.

If you want some off-hand, totally arbitrary numbers that help explain this point, those sorts of shooters are 80% gunplay skill, 20% tactical skill. Battlefield is the inverse.
So strategy, tactics, positioning, movement, and selecting the right weapons...according to you, these things only make up 20% of games like CS:GO, Overwatch, TF2, etc? Have you even played any of those games? Their skill ceiling is vastly higher than any Battlefield game in literally EVERY aspect with the exception of vehicle gameplay.

No, the truth of the matter is that all of the games I mentioned have tactics, positioning, awareness, etc in spades. In fact even arena shooters like Quake and UT had actual SKILL to movement (circle-strafing, rocket jumps, etc) and map knowledge to the likes of which Battlefield's huge maps can't even compare. What's more, due to their small-scale nature your skill as an individual was crucial. You also had a high degree of control over where you are in respect to the enemy. Nobody is going to fall on your head from a fucking zeppelin floating 300 feet above.

There is not even an argument to be had here. Battlefield is a random number generator where the mark of a "good" player is someone who knows how to make the odds sway a bit more in their favor.
That is the extent of Battlefield's depth, and BF1's sniper damage model perfectly sums it up.


Total bullshit numbers and an oversimplification, but this is the basic truth of the matter.
You can't really make up bullshit, admit that it's bullshit, and then proceed to say it's true. Stop :P

Darktan13

Unhappy Camper

(4,624)

Posts: 1,396

Date of registration
: Feb 13th 2012

Platform: PC

Location: Europe

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 14

  • Send private message

144

Monday, July 11th 2016, 11:01am

You can't really make up bullshit, admit that it's bullshit, and then proceed to say it's true. Stop.


That's what we keep telling you. But you just don't listen.



:D

Quoted from "J0hn-Stuart-Mill"

EMPOWER EMPOWER EMPOWER

VincentNZ

Holy War? No Thanks.

(2,282)

Posts: 2,700

Date of registration
: Jul 25th 2013

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 15

  • Send private message

145

Monday, July 11th 2016, 11:06am

For example the only reason "headshots only" sniper methodology works in games like Overwatch, TF2, Crysis, etc is because snipers are hitscan and heavily reward players who can pull off snap-aim MLG reflex headshots.


And another reason it works in other shooters is because most of those games focus on things like "snap-aim MLG reflex headshots" as what is considered skilled and done by high-level players. Battlefield is not one of those games. Aim, recoil control, bullet drop, all that stuff, sure they're factors, sure that's a part of skill, but they're far less important and significant to skill in Battlefield than strategy, tactics, positioning, movement, and selecting/using the right classes/weapons/tools/vehicles for the task at hand.

If you want some off-hand, totally arbitrary numbers that help explain this point, those sorts of shooters are 80% gunplay skill, 20% tactical skill. Battlefield is the inverse. Total bullshit numbers and an oversimplification, but this is the basic truth of the matter. The only times gunplay skills are really relevant are when you're fighting someone and both of you are in your optimal ranges (i.e. both SMGs up close, both snipers at range, both in Fighter airplanes, etc).

Gunplay skills are simply a tie-breaker.


Now I agree here as well. The tactical part is a deciding factor, but that is just what I argue all the time here. If you take your BA to a CQ situation, this was a bad choice. Now you can offset this a bit by being good at shooting but only partially, this is what Noctyrne is at, too. To be fair though, tactical play might be a focus of the BF franchise, but the fast-paced combat still offers a similar fun gunplay experience to CoD and other shooters. I actually think the gunplay mechanics are quite deep though and well thought out in BF4 it just comes all together.

On what Xuvial said, in BF3 I was doing good in the end and had just started on playing the BAs and I did alright, both from the stats and personal feelings. It worked roughly the same in the open beta of BF4 as well, but after release I dabbled a bit with BAs and quickly dropped them despite the non-existence of suppression and the adding of kill assists count as kill. I always wondered why that is. My stats with other weapons, full or semi auto alike, barely increased (which just shows how overestimated the effect of suppression in BF3 really was), but my personal performance increased drastically over time.