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NoctyrneSAGA

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21

Monday, June 27th 2016, 8:29pm

No, we can't. The conversation we're having, is that a sniper rifle is only good at long range, and if we need to fight in close range, we have our sidearm. For that to actually be balanced, the sidearm needs to actually be competitive with CQB primary weapons. Likewise, SMGs are only good at close range, and a sidearm would be needed for longer range. For that to actually be balanced, the sidearm needs to be competitive with long range primary weapons.


Not exactly true.

The sidearm just needs to make up for your primary weapon's weakness.



A long range sidearm isn't supposed to compete with Sniper Rifles. It's supposed to offer a better chance than an SMG would at longer range.

Same with a close range sidearm. Not supposed to be on par with SMGs, just better than Sniper Rifles at CQB.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

22

Monday, June 27th 2016, 11:44pm

No, we can't. The conversation we're having, is that a sniper rifle is only good at long range, and if we need to fight in close range, we have our sidearm. For that to actually be balanced, the sidearm needs to actually be competitive with CQB primary weapons. Likewise, SMGs are only good at close range, and a sidearm would be needed for longer range. For that to actually be balanced, the sidearm needs to be competitive with long range primary weapons.


Not exactly true.

The sidearm just needs to make up for your primary weapon's weakness.



A long range sidearm isn't supposed to compete with Sniper Rifles. It's supposed to offer a better chance than an SMG would at longer range.

Same with a close range sidearm. Not supposed to be on par with SMGs, just better than Sniper Rifles at CQB.


Yeh, like the G18/Scoped Magnum I mentioned. But you seem to understand my the idea.... Where's the sidearm that will fill that role for the scout class? I would presume it would be the webley, or maybe a full auto C96... But as I said, if we're expected to use that as our primary when the fog rolls in, we're gonna need no ammo nerfs like BF4 had.

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23

Tuesday, June 28th 2016, 12:31am

Running away is not a counter.


It really is. Someone attempts to close range with you, you run away as a long range damage dealer. Everyone runs at nearly the same speed, so there's a good chance they can't catch up, and if they decide to shoot, thats opening more distance.

Snipers shouldn't stay in one spot for too long, and running away facilitates this idea.

But as I said, if we're expected to use that as our primary when the fog rolls in, we're gonna need no ammo nerfs like BF4 had.


If the fog rolls in theres a lever action 1895 that has twice the rpm as the other BARs, can be run with just iron sights, and has a damage model that is similar to the BF4 one, meaning it's better in CQC. I'm also sure there will be all kit weapons that can also be used to greater effect in vision obscuring areas than the long range BARs.

Why should we round the corners of the square peg to fit in the circle hole, when the circle peg is already next to us?

24

Tuesday, June 28th 2016, 12:56am

Running away is not a counter.


It really is. Someone attempts to close range with you, you run away as a long range damage dealer.


Then they chase you, and you keep running, and they keep chasing you, and so on, until you hit the redzone and you're screwed. That's not a counter. That's delaying the inevitable.

And seriously, does that sound like fun gameplay? BF1 aka marathon simulator 2016.

Quoted

Everyone runs at nearly the same speed, so there's a good chance they can't catch up


And an equal chance they won't fall behind. The sniper is still boned.

Quoted

Snipers shouldn't stay in one spot for too long, and running away facilitates this idea.


Agreed, but no, repositioning facilitates that idea. An endless and pointless retreat is not the same as repositioning.

But as I said, if we're expected to use that as our primary when the fog rolls in, we're gonna need no ammo nerfs like BF4 had.


Quoted

If the fog rolls in theres a lever action 1895 that has twice the rpm as the other BARs, can be run with just iron sights, and has a damage model that is similar to the BF4 one, meaning it's better in CQC.


Sure, we can spawn with that after we already died because the fog was unbalanced against our current weapon. But hey if we're respawning, might as well just suicide and respawn with an SMG. Totally balanced hey?

BTW as far as I can tell it's damage is more like the BFH scout elite. No OHK in CQB unless headshots. Seems cool.

Quoted

I'm also sure there will be all kit weapons that can also be used to greater effect in vision obscuring areas than the long range BAR


That still doesn't help us if we've spawned with a long range BASR. If it's our sidearm and has enough ammo to outlast the fog and a decent chance in CQB, that's fine of course.

Quoted

Why should we round the corners of the square peg to fit in the circle hole, when the circle peg is already next to us?


Sorry I don't understand what you're saying here.

NoctyrneSAGA

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25

Tuesday, June 28th 2016, 1:13am

Running away is not a counter.


It really is. Someone attempts to close range with you, you run away as a long range damage dealer.


Then they chase you, and you keep running, and they keep chasing you, and so on, until you hit the redzone and you're screwed. That's not a counter. That's delaying the inevitable.

And seriously, does that sound like fun gameplay? BF1 aka marathon simulator 2016.


It is a good counter. If you want to range down your enemy with a weapon that has relatively longer reach, you have to keep moving out of their relatively shorter range while keeping them in yours.

This tactic even has a specific name.

It is called kiting.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

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26

Tuesday, June 28th 2016, 1:37am

Yeh, like the G18/Scoped Magnum I mentioned. But you seem to understand my the idea.... Where's the sidearm that will fill that role for the scout class? I would presume it would be the webley, or maybe a full auto C96... But as I said, if we're expected to use that as our primary when the fog rolls in, we're gonna need no ammo nerfs like BF4 had.


You seem to be under the impression that only machine pistols and hand cannons can be used as primaries, which is most definitely untrue. Using standard sidearms (9mm, .45, etc) as primaries when outside your primary's effective range (longer range for SMGs/Shotguns, CQB for BAs, on the move for MGs) is perfectly viable, it's simply more difficult, as it requires both more technical (aiming) skill and tactical (positioning) skill.

You'll definitely be at a disadvantage, and that's the entire idea, but you're exaggerating how much. Personally I prefer, and do better with, the more "normal" pistols, even as primaries.
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27

Tuesday, June 28th 2016, 2:40am

Sure, we can spawn with that after we already died because the fog was unbalanced against our current weapon. But hey if we're respawning, might as well just suicide and respawn with an SMG. Totally balanced hey?


Why can't you respawn? It's not like there's ticket bleed or your team gets an even greater disadvantage because you died once.

I'm sure there will also be visual indication of fog being the dynamic weather choice, so you adjust your load out accordingly.

Sorry I don't understand what you're saying here.


Why should we go through a lengthy and complicated process of developing a new mechanic (rounding the square peg) to fix a perceived problem (the circle hole), when the tools for solving that problem exist within our reach (the circle peg)?

28

Tuesday, June 28th 2016, 5:34am

Running away is not a counter.


It really is. Someone attempts to close range with you, you run away as a long range damage dealer.


Then they chase you, and you keep running, and they keep chasing you, and so on, until you hit the redzone and you're screwed. That's not a counter. That's delaying the inevitable.

And seriously, does that sound like fun gameplay? BF1 aka marathon simulator 2016.


It is a good counter..


You just quoted text that shows otherwise. This is not a case of the sniper leading targets away, this is a case of the sniper making a futile run for his life until he dies. This situation is not 'kiting', it's shitting your pants and getting fucked over by an unbalanced mechanic that no other class has to deal with.

And that's the point. No other class has this problem. If the SMG user wants to avoid the sniper, he turns a corner.

boom. in cover, problem solved, carry on killing other guys. When the tables are turned, when the sniper has to deal with the SMG, the sniper is boned, How is that balanced?


You seem to be under the impression that only machine pistols and hand cannons can be used as primaries


I never gave that impression. I specifically said that the sidearm would need to be competitive with the weapon it's supposed to counter. If this is going to be the only useful weapon we have in fog, it should be good enough to at least stay alive, while the SMG user is still doing the exact same thing that he was doing before.

Quoted

it's simply more difficult, as it requires both more technical (aiming) skill and tactical (positioning) skill.


A 4BTK semiauto pistol against a 4BTK 900RPM automatic is not just "more difficult", it's totally unbalanced. If there were a class that had a primary weapon so much more "difficult" everyone would be like WTF, but when the scout class is forced to use the equally "difficult" sidearm as a primary, that's OK?

Quoted

you're exaggerating how much.


How so? Like I keep saying - This is about BALANCE. You guys like to be all scientific but you're throwing it out the window here for the sake of arguing with me.

When the fog rolls in, it puts the sniper at a degree of disadvantage.
Which weather puts the SMG user at a similar degree of disadvantage? Where is this balance?


Why can't you respawn? It's not like there's ticket bleed or your team gets an even greater disadvantage because you died once.


LOL are you fucking serious?

Presuming you actually are..... You're proving my point.

Why should I have to?

At which point does the SMG user have to respawn because of weather making his loadout useless?

Why should we go through a lengthy and complicated process of developing a new mechanic (rounding the square peg) to fix a perceived problem (the circle hole), when the tools for solving that problem exist within our reach (the circle peg)?


What tools exist?

What is it that places an SMG using assault player in this same situation as having to die so that they can respawn and play again?



Edit: Paraphrasing myself from the Bl forums:

This is not about assault vs recon. This is about (fog vs assault) vs (fog vs recon).

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "KDNS" (Jun 28th 2016, 5:50am)


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29

Tuesday, June 28th 2016, 7:50am

You just quoted text that shows otherwise. This is not a case of the sniper leading targets away, this is a case of the sniper making a futile run for his life until he dies.


If the sniper begins the run at smg max range or 20-30m away how is it futile for the sniper? He has a great chance of getting away since ADSing with the smg opens more distance for the sniper to get into cover or the smg user is forced into giving up shooting to go on a desperate chase. If the sniper then breaks LOS rounds a corner and sets up an ambush or jukes the smg user he can then potentially ambush the smg user and get a kill whilst also relocating.

That's called outplaying your opponent by kiting them.

Why should I have to?

At which point does the SMG user have to respawn because of weather making his loadout useless?


When the engagement distances and sight lines are vast expanses of open terrain so that semi auto's and BARs have the advantage. Clear skies and sunny day is kinda the inverse to foggy weather for snipers.

Sure the smg user can also use cover to run around in little rat hole trenches to avoid open sightlines, but the sniper can also position himself so that there's limited cover to his sightline and you have to cross open fields to get at him.

That's called outplaying your opponent by tactical positioning.

What is it that places an SMG using assault player in this same situation as having to die so that they can respawn and play again?


When there are low vehicle counts since their kit is anti vehicle, and when the terrain is open and has limited cover like Golmud Railway, Rogue Transmission, or Silk Road. Then the smg user has to run around and hide praying that no one sees them and takes them out before they can get close.

C0llis

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30

Tuesday, June 28th 2016, 8:57am

If you shoot your enemy in the back it doesn't matter that his weapon has a faster raw TTK.

This while debate is getting a bit silly - you are using players chasing each other to the edge of the map, Benny Hill style, as an argument FFS.

Being at a disadvantage at ranges where your gun is inferior wasn't a balance problem before, which is it suddenly one now? The only relevant changes I can see is that BAs are no longer ghetto shotguns (which is good) and that there are (presumably) no more stupidly tall buildings with a single C4/claymore camped entrance or with the need for airtaxis to get up (which is also a good thing).

Too me it's a clear case of positioning skill:
Create a killing field from a vantage point with a long range weapon = positioning skill
Avoid an enemy player's long range killing field and sneak close so you have the advantage = positioning skill
The counter is having better awareness and positioning skill than your opponent and using your gadgets to close/hold the gap.

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.