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  • "potetr" started this thread

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Thursday, June 23rd 2016, 2:45pm

The close quarters equivalent of suppression

Greetings,

A few days ago I though about what the opposite -or “close quarters variant” of suppression in Bf4 could be, and yesterday the quoted post below made me think about it in context of Bf1, especially the last part:

It's easy to avoid long range engagements (take cover.)
It's easy to force close range engagements (use that cover to move closer)
Avoiding close range engagement essentially means running away.

Is the scout class intended to be the class that runs away from a fight?

I guess what I'm saying is that I see how they seem to intend the class to be used... but what is the intended counter for rushing players with CQB weapons?


Technically, the close quarters player is also running away from a fight, a long range one. Anyway,


When facing a sniper far away, an SMG user can
-run closer to get in a position where his weapon shines (using cover and suppression)
-avoid the engagement (using cover)

When facing an SMG user up close, a sniper can
-run away to get in a position where his weapon shines (using cover, but it’s significantly harder than scenario one)
-avoid the engagement (this is harder too)

It is as KDNS says, ranged engagements are easier to control because of the longer TTK that comes with distance (excluding snipers who kill you before you see them).
Players have even got the tool of suppression to make closing the gap easier by debuffing the distant opponent!

There is no tool akin to suppression which makes increasing the gap easier.

What if there was?

Proposed mechanic
By pressing a button, your soldier will do an action which desorients and incapacitates a nearby enemy for a short time, so you can reposition. This action could be either throwing a spare magazine to the face of the opponent, throwing your helmet (my fav, and it fits the style of Bf1) or something else with a little range to it (pocket sand?). Movement of either participant is not affected.

Suppression compared with new mechanic:

Suppression:
Debuff enemy at range at the cost of
-resources (bullets)
-making sound
-showing up on the map
-reducing own combat capability during the action (spread, use ammo)

“Stun”:
Debuff enemy up close at the cost of
-resources (bullets, or helmet which could increase your headshot multiplier until you get a new one)
-making sound (impact sound or shouts)
-showing up on map (unless using a suppressor perhaps, same for scream. To make it equal to suppression)
-reducing own combat efficiency during the action (scramble to ready gun again-> can’t shoot for x seconds)

The debuff
Duration: ~5 seconds
-Certain HUD elements (Minimap) disappear.
-No use of gadgets or grenades.
-Vision is obstructed initially (~1 second)(By stumbling towards the ground or blacking out. So you can’t see where the stunner runs).
-Drastic loss of accuracy initially (1 to 2 seconds) (or better, dropping/fumbling away the gun). To let stunner escape.

The debuffer will not be able to kill for the same duration +50%, to prevent this from being a useful tactic for other than escaping.
Also, it should take a short time (like 0.3s) to inflict (throwing animation), to confine it as a purely defensive action, which you have to plan to use. It shouldn’t become “press x to escape 1v1”.

The counter would be attacking from an unexpected angle, same as is the counter to suppression.

I think this sounds like a game mechanic that belongs in the game. When I know an enemy is close I’d rather fling out my helmet, reposition and flank with my pistol than try to noscope/headshot. There are also many other scenarios where this is a viable tactic, and together with suppression we’ve got mechanics which promote this kind of cat and mouse game of repositioning and flanking.

Thoughts?

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Quoted from "NoctyrneSAGA"

_____

When I play with it [Autoloading 8] I feel like I am batman taking out 1 after 1 baddie while they feel helpless and don't know who is talking out their mates.
Remove 3D spotting. It’s a mechanic that rewards bad eyesight.
Wanna help your team by sneaking through enemy territory to provide spawns? THIS IS NOT TEAMWORK FGT I HOPE YOU RUN OUT OF MOTION BALLS TOO EARLY TO BE SUCCESSFUL
Wanna be Javelin squad but only have two guys? BETTER NOT GET YOUR SOFLAM KILLED FGT THIS IS NOT TEAMWORK WITHOUT A SUPPORT DUDE DROPPING AMMO ON YOU EVERY 2 MINUTES
Please post your best M1916 clips Magazines *fixed*.

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What Makes the Best Player?
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Archive - Wait But Why - I recommend the posts on AI, and Neuralink, in that order. They are long, but very interesting. Just skim parts of them.

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Battlefield 1 DeployTimes

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "potetr" (Jun 28th 2016, 1:47pm)


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Thursday, June 23rd 2016, 3:58pm

The action you suggest has the problem of being to CQC, in BF4 atleast CQC goes out to around 35 meters and it would one look weird throwing things that far and it would need a faster velocity so you actualy hit. But the biggest problem is it is another button to pres and it isn't extactly intuitive either.

Wouldn't it be easier and more intuitive to make sniper shots suppress (Alot) when not in the sweet spot range? Ofcourse where it kicks in and drops off in comparsion needs to be tweaked, plus the suppression amount also needs tweaking. I suggest that when under 100 DMG the snipe will do 5 bullets worth of suppression, depending on how it works in BF1.

Otherwise i agree that there needs to be something that makes long range viable.

NoctyrneSAGA

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Thursday, June 23rd 2016, 6:14pm

Hint:

If a sniper is caught in CQB, they have their sidearm to use in the engagement.

If they want to reposition, they can use the Bayonet Charge as an escape.
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Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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  • "potetr" started this thread

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Thursday, June 23rd 2016, 7:19pm

The action you suggest has the problem of being to CQC, in BF4 atleast CQC goes out to around 35 meters and it would one look weird throwing things that far and it would need a faster velocity so you actualy hit. But the biggest problem is it is another button to pres and it isn't extactly intuitive either.

Wouldn't it be easier and more intuitive to make sniper shots suppress (Alot) when not in the sweet spot range? Ofcourse where it kicks in and drops off in comparsion needs to be tweaked, plus the suppression amount also needs tweaking. I suggest that when under 100 DMG the snipe will do 5 bullets worth of suppression, depending on how it works in BF1.


I had like max 5-10 meters in mind.

I can think of several ways to free a button on console (moving grenade to hold LB/L1 and then having "stun" on tap LB/L1 for example).

Thing is, I don't want it to be exclusive for just snipers. Any player who feel outgunned should be able to reposition, at range he'll use suppression, up close he'll use this new mechanic.

Increasing suppression up close doesn't add any depth to the engagement, it is just buffing snipers up close.

Hint:

If a sniper is caught in CQB, they have their sidearm to use in the engagement.

If they want to reposition, they can use the Bayonet Charge as an escape.


If an SMG user is caught in a long range engagement, he can use his sidearm (if there are revolvers like the .44) or suppress and move closer. Long range armed players (not just snipers) still get the short end.

I did consider the bayonet charge (awesome mechanic btw), it doesn't really change things as the SMG user can charge right after you.

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ammo regen pls

Quoted from "NoctyrneSAGA"

_____

When I play with it [Autoloading 8] I feel like I am batman taking out 1 after 1 baddie while they feel helpless and don't know who is talking out their mates.
Remove 3D spotting. It’s a mechanic that rewards bad eyesight.
Wanna help your team by sneaking through enemy territory to provide spawns? THIS IS NOT TEAMWORK FGT I HOPE YOU RUN OUT OF MOTION BALLS TOO EARLY TO BE SUCCESSFUL
Wanna be Javelin squad but only have two guys? BETTER NOT GET YOUR SOFLAM KILLED FGT THIS IS NOT TEAMWORK WITHOUT A SUPPORT DUDE DROPPING AMMO ON YOU EVERY 2 MINUTES
Please post your best M1916 clips Magazines *fixed*.

Cool/Useful Links

What Makes the Best Player?
David Sirlin on Intuition
Archive - Wait But Why - I recommend the posts on AI, and Neuralink, in that order. They are long, but very interesting. Just skim parts of them.

Symthic Databrowser
Battlefield 1 DeployTimes

5

Thursday, June 23rd 2016, 7:27pm

Doesn't sound very balanced.

Using the charge to run for a new position will mean leaving your cover and exposing yourself along the way, and then all the SMG user need to is the same thing, chase you down, and you've taken a giant risk to gain nothing.

So, If an SMG user finds himself in a long range fight, he takes cover, disappears or closes the gap, and is fine.
If the sniper finds himself in a CQB fight, he's not going to be able to reposition effectively (see above) and will be lumped with a weaker weapon and essentially loses the fight.

In other words:
Sniper counter = run away and pray they don't chase you or you're boned.
SMG counter = charge = always win.

Balance?

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Thursday, June 23rd 2016, 7:55pm

I had like max 5-10 meters in mind.
We have the revamped melee system for that range.

Not to mention that I don't really see why we should give players tools/handicaps for when they fail with their positioning and situational awareness.


If an SMG user is caught in a long range engagement, he can use his sidearm (if there are revolvers like the .44) or suppress and move closer. Long range armed players (not just snipers) still get the short end.
What prevents players with long range weapons from grabbing a close quarters secondary?




Regarding your suggested mechanic: I don't think a mechanic like the one you are suggesting would be fun. In fact, I think it would ruin the game. The ability to disable a player with a single action (even if that action has a windup and limits use of weapons/gadgets afterwards) will get abused and it will get annoying fast. Imagine when players start spamming it whenever they think they will loose a CQB engagement or get jumped on. Players will just get disabled and have to run around/wait out the timer before they can reengage, it will get boring, annoying and frustrating really fast.

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

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Thursday, June 23rd 2016, 10:02pm

Bayonets and smoke/gas grenades.
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  • "potetr" started this thread

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Thursday, June 23rd 2016, 10:13pm

@C0llis


Using it when you think you will lose an engagement is exactly its purpose.

Getting jumped on would result in your death, because of the throw time (which could probably be longer than described in the OP).

That people have to wait for the effect to fade is exactly the same scenario as with being suppressed.

That said, I do of course not know if this would be great or break the game, only testing would reveal that.

@Forger21

Still, long range armed players have one less tool at their disposal.

signature 2.1

Things I support
ammo regen pls

Quoted from "NoctyrneSAGA"

_____

When I play with it [Autoloading 8] I feel like I am batman taking out 1 after 1 baddie while they feel helpless and don't know who is talking out their mates.
Remove 3D spotting. It’s a mechanic that rewards bad eyesight.
Wanna help your team by sneaking through enemy territory to provide spawns? THIS IS NOT TEAMWORK FGT I HOPE YOU RUN OUT OF MOTION BALLS TOO EARLY TO BE SUCCESSFUL
Wanna be Javelin squad but only have two guys? BETTER NOT GET YOUR SOFLAM KILLED FGT THIS IS NOT TEAMWORK WITHOUT A SUPPORT DUDE DROPPING AMMO ON YOU EVERY 2 MINUTES
Please post your best M1916 clips Magazines *fixed*.

Cool/Useful Links

What Makes the Best Player?
David Sirlin on Intuition
Archive - Wait But Why - I recommend the posts on AI, and Neuralink, in that order. They are long, but very interesting. Just skim parts of them.

Symthic Databrowser
Battlefield 1 DeployTimes

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "potetr" (Jun 23rd 2016, 10:22pm)


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Friday, June 24th 2016, 12:20am

Sidearm, bayonet charge to escape, bayonet charge to attack, melee, dropping a gas/smoke/incendiary/frag grenade between you and/or at your feet, general movement abilities like sprint or climbing over walls, using teammates as distraction/cover/support. Or, you know, actually trying to use your Sniper Rifle up close; it might not 1HK but it's not exactly shooting marshmallows.
Who has fun, wins.

Forger21

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Friday, June 24th 2016, 12:33am

Sidearm, bayonet charge to escape, bayonet charge to attack, melee, dropping a gas/smoke/incendiary/frag grenade between you and/or at your feet, general movement abilities like sprint or climbing over walls, using teammates as distraction/cover/support. Or, you know, actually trying to use your Sniper Rifle up close; it might not 1HK but it's not exactly shooting marshmallows.

You can even run with iron sights on your bolt action if you're worried about fighting up close. Might be a bit trickier to hit stuff at range without a scope, but it's certainly doable.
Example
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