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marbleduck

Smoked Salmon Best Salmon

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31

Thursday, June 23rd 2016, 12:58am

Just to clear up: CSGO's system is as follows.
First bullet will be the most accurate, with follow-up shots following a recoil pattern and small deviation, hence why macros will not help. Three shooting styles exist.

Tapping: The user utilises the possibility of killing with one headshot to his advantage by moving sideways, counterstrafing (hitting either A or D to bring his gun to 100% accuracy and stop himself quicker), and moving in a way where his movement is difficult to predict. This was a very old meta of CSGO and is not encouraged anymore, especially with most of the playerbase being reluctant to use the gun that always has a 100% accurate first bullet for 300 dollars more instead of using the gun that is the icon of the franchise. The most prominent user of this style is the G2 player ScreaM, who while once dominated CSGO, finds adjusting to the new meta hard. Here are a few highlights. CS:GO - Best of ScreaM [Highlights] - YouTube
As Duck mentioned in his video, it is still used on pistol rounds where it is necessary to have good first bullet accuracy. See shox's USP-S ace for better information on tapping in pistol rounds. He uses counterstrafing in combination with the good moving accuracy of the USP-S and his tracking abilities to headshot his enemies. shox godly pistol ace - YouTube

2-3round bursts: The meta of 1.6 where the quick spread reset allowed for a style similar to tapping but obviously while bursting. I am not qualified to explain this however. It is apparent with one gun in the game, the M4A1-S where going for 2-round bursts is encouraged if the user has good enough aim. The A1-S is the most accurate out of the top three most used ARs, the M4A4 and the AK-47.

Spraying: The user utilises the small deviation and muscle memory to put the required 3-4 bullets into the enemy, while following the pre-defined recoil pattern. This is the current meta of CSGO. It works well as it punishes the person trying to move and dodge the bullets as being hit by bullets slows you down in CSGO.


To add to this, AK47 SIPS:

Platoon Marble Duck

Hate Mail

"you obviously don't know what an argument is as there is only one person battling. Do you really fucking think I want subs? You think you can act all big and powerful just because you sit on a computer at least 6 hours a day like the probably nerdy unwanted retard you are with 4.3k subs? You think 4.3k subs is a lot? LOL you need medicine man. I don't want any subs as i just have a google account for other media and writing comments. Think twice before you act. You even said in your video you aren't that great of a player, and the comments agree you aren't. Maybe you should once again think twice before you act, stop being such an annoying, ignorant bastard that everyone wants to shut up, and god, literally, just shut up. Your voice gave me a headache :s"

"As a youtuber shouldn't be trying to be reeling in your viewers with exciting stuff being said not your boring ass commentary for your video"

"The more you watch his vid the dumber he gets I swear he's borderline autistic look I got shot behind cover beacuase thin sheets metal are unpenetrable. Bf4 is just as quiet and tactical as bf3 random explosion in the background . Player has dissconected from chat
You started playing bf3 and never touched bfc1/2. Please do yourself a favor and shutdown your generic cod channel down"

"Nice clickb8 Faggot w8ting for your shit tier video to disable comments . Fucking newfag cancer go play some cod you activisiom cock faggot"

"I don't see why he [MarbleDuck] always tries to shit on levelcap he is better and has a million more subs...and also "there isnt a best gun in she game there are guns that are better that others at different engagement distances" yes thats true and whichever is the best/most average at all of them is the "best gun""

"Marbleduck you don't know shit lol levelcap knows more than you do you cant talk about how someone puts up garbage when you do yourself your a newcomer to YouTube acting like you know shit step up in the food chain first then you have the right to talk otherwise your just a fish trying to compete with sharks"

"Why don't we just witness "LevelCap vs MarbleDuck" One on One both on Battlefield 3 and Battlefield 4 seen as there is so much Controversy about the Two Youtubers"

"stfu cunt, BF3 was way better end of discussion"

"Stfu man, you're be littleing the most looked upon Battlefield Youtuber. No one cares about you, how much of an ego you have, or quite frankly your opinion. It's a fucking game.... Does it really fucking matter? Pathetic man."

"fuck you asshole, dont talk shit about total"

"Wtf is your problem? You have no subs and he has millions, yet you pick on him like some kind of stubborn, ignorant, rude child born with a silver spoon is his mouth. It's easy to do that, for example... You said there was no background noise yet there is. You say you're a fairly good player, you're not."

"please talk like a normal person and not like a professional"

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32

Thursday, June 23rd 2016, 12:58am

That patch was reverted due to community demand.
Hackintosh user, european player, suppressor lover.
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Thursday, June 23rd 2016, 1:05am

Grr, I need to disentangle myself from the concept of realism in games like this, especially since I don't see how that makes any sense in reality but it makes pretty good sense from a gameplay point of view.


Think of it as representing walking your fire and/or getting a handle on the gun's recoil after the jolt of the first shot (especially if the gun fires from an open bolt).
Who Enjoys, Wins

VincentNZ

Holy War? No Thanks.

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34

Thursday, June 23rd 2016, 10:44am

What does SIPS FSM really mean in simple words? Is your spread increase worse for the first shot and then drops just ro rise up again? That does sound rather counterintuitive. Or does it mean that it will jump from being accurate to inaccurate in a blink but from there only marginally increasing? This is again rather unintuitive from a gameplay perspective.

As for LMGs this makes even less sense unless you are bipoded and even then it is hazy. You are bringing 15kgs up to your face and fire for any length and you get more accurate? This does not happen. It does not happen for even SMGs, which are considerably lighter. I honestly think apart from a rather unimpressive suppression system (BF3 had that one right), the gungame is great as of now.

I just do not get why one would need to complicate a system further with varying spread, if there are so many other variables already around to balance weapons in a class and between classes. As of now for any weapon you choose you pick a range you can engage in. SMGs do less damage at range, but you can still be proficient if your aim is good enough to control recoil, but spread will automatically limit your engagement range. Yes it gets kind of hazy when you compare ARs and LMGs which are largely the same at range, but still have distinct differences in hipfiring. I did prefer the BF3 model, with the suppression, but without it the LMGs needed some love to make them viable.
By the way I see no reason why neither the BF3 nor the BF4 LMGs could not fulfill a supportive role. The defensive role largely came from suppression and volume of fire in BF3 and continued to do so in BF4. Tactically deploying them was rather vital in BF3 and you could still do it in BF4 but it became also viable to employ it similar to an AR, Carbine or PDW. You might call that boring, but I think it is actually consistent and understandable.

Zer0Cod3x

Can't get a title

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35

Thursday, June 23rd 2016, 12:27pm

I know that bursting does reduce your effective DPS. Dont tell me the conclusion we know from the last games. Tell me why a 2 or 3 rb isnt viable anymore? As far as I understood it with a 2rb every burst has a bullet at base spread and the second bullet at the higher spread. Like this: o-O-o-O-o-O Even if you dont manage a 1rb you still can burst.

What you have to ask is - is being more accurate with fewer rounds or shooting more rounds at a lower accuracy is going to net the lowest TTK?

Especially coming from BF4, short bursts would be the intuitive answer. But that might not be the case.


WARNING: MATHS INCOMING


Let's take a look at MarbleDuck's sample SMG - 0.3 min spread, 8x SIPS FSM, 0.03 SIPS. The target being fired at has a radius of 0.25 m, the size of the BF4 soldier's upper chest (simple numbers because I can't be bothered to factor in irregular shapes), and is standing at 28 m (again, weird number for ease of calculation). Let's also assume the SMG fires at 800 RPM and has a SDEC of 7. This simulation does not take into account H-Rec and assumes perfect V-Rec control.

To calculate the chance of a bullet hitting the target, you have to calculate what percentage of the area of your gun's spread is covered by the area of the target. For this to work, we also have to assume equal distribution within the cone of fire.


Formula used: ((([RadiusOfTarget])^2 * pi) / ([Distance] * TAN([CurrentSpread]))^2 * pi) * 100


Chance to hit target with first bullet: 100%
2nd: 89.7%
3rd: 80.5%
4th: 72.7%
5th: 65.9%


So what about the overall number of hits though? To calculate this, you have to average the chance to hit the target with all shots of the burst.

((1 + 0.897 + 0.805 + 0.727 + 0.659) / 5 = 4.088

So on average, 4 out of your 5 shots will hit the target. At 800 RPM and 30 Hz, a 5RB takes 9 frames to shoot.


Again, the question is: is shooting five shots going to net a faster TTK than shooting a number of shorter bursts and waiting for spread to reset in between them, say two 2RBs?


With this example, it turns out that shooting two 2RBs would also take 9 frames.

So no, bursting does not always net you a faster TTK. In this case, both styles of shooting came out to have an equal damage output, only that holding down the trigger is significantly easier than timing two perfect 2RBs and having to compensate for added V-Rec.



TL;DR - it really depends on the situation as to which style of shooting comes out on top. As per usual, a microburst is always more effective at longer ranges than a long burst, and a long burst is always more effective in CQB. However, there is no overarching "one method is better," and it will heavily depend on the individual weapon stats.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


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36

Thursday, June 23rd 2016, 2:24pm

@ZeroCodx

Thanks for the maths.

However, one question remains unsolved:

Is this good?

It doesnt add a layer of depth. It separates the two approaches burst vs full-auto better.

Different to CSGO in Battlefield one headshot doesnt kill the opponent. Therefore the improved accuracy for 1rb doesnt pay off, since there is little to no reward for it. Full-auto is going to be the new and only meta. Whereas in current BFs its at least about timing the bursts.
still playin' Motorstorm

R3per_Inc

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37

Thursday, June 23rd 2016, 3:36pm

@ZeroCodx

Thanks for the maths.

However, one question remains unsolved:

Is this good?

It doesnt add a layer of depth. It separates the two approaches burst vs full-auto better.

Different to CSGO in Battlefield one headshot doesnt kill the opponent. Therefore the improved accuracy for 1rb doesnt pay off, since there is little to no reward for it. Full-auto is going to be the new and only meta. Whereas in current BFs its at least about timing the bursts.
isn't the Assault the only class with smg's? Medic and Scout have BAs and Semis. I actually like to see gameplay, where not 75% of the people use only one class and use effective there class gadgets.

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Thursday, June 23rd 2016, 4:03pm

@ZeroCodx

Thanks for the maths.

However, one question remains unsolved:

Is this good?

It doesnt add a layer of depth. It separates the two approaches burst vs full-auto better.

Different to CSGO in Battlefield one headshot doesnt kill the opponent. Therefore the improved accuracy for 1rb doesnt pay off, since there is little to no reward for it. Full-auto is going to be the new and only meta. Whereas in current BFs its at least about timing the bursts.


From what i understand it is to make the SMG's completly useless at longer ranges due to the need for waiting between a single shot. It is not there for depth but balance.

ViperFTW

Suidae cathexis

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39

Thursday, June 23rd 2016, 5:00pm

Grr, I need to disentangle myself from the concept of realism in games like this, especially since I don't see how that makes any sense in reality but it makes pretty good sense from a gameplay point of view.


Think of it as representing walking your fire and/or getting a handle on the gun's recoil after the jolt of the first shot (especially if the gun fires from an open bolt).


Huh, that makes more sense. Not a lot more, but it's better than nothing :)

Everybody's Favourite Worthless Support and LMG Fan! :thumbsup:



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Sunday, June 26th 2016, 1:14pm

Thank you Marble for such detailed info on stats of a yet-to-be-released game.

I have given it some thoughts but I still am not sure if this change is beneficial to the gunplay of BF1. But here are my thoughts:

SMG: Now that there arent AR and carbines, the SMG has only LMG to compete with as far as automatic weapons go. This means that the SMG has a bigger range "niche" that it needs to fulfill compared to BF4. Marble views the new spread system as having a low base spread, large spread FSM and small SIPS. On the contrary I view it as high base spread, small SIPS but with a first shot accuracy bonus. Take the sample SMG that marble used in the video, I would use it like a 0.51 base spread SMG, not 0.30, somewhat like a P90 from BF3. With this mindset, I think playstyle would not change much because at the range that you used to magdump you would do that too in BF1, same for microbursting. What I think they did was that they took away the class of more accurate PDWs, like UMP-9, UMP-45, PP-2000, all of which are my favorites. I would hypothesize that in mid range SMG won't even hold a candle against semi-autos because of the high spread. But ofcourse we still need to figure out SDPS to gauge of the overall effectiveness of bursting SMGs.

LMG: With the new spread decrease system, I think the new shooting style is just magdump til the person dies and quickly switch to another target in sight without letting go of the trigger so you take advantage of the decreased spread. At super long ranges 1RB is still king though.

Semi-auto/DMR: With the lack of accuracy of new SMGs and the binary shooting style of the new LMGs, there is a big void of power weapons in mid range gunfights, and I think semi-autos could dominate them, depending on spread values, SDPS of each class of weapons of course. My reasoning is that DMRs can take advantage of the first 2-4 inaccurate shots from LMGs and SMGs and put 3 shots in before LMG spread decreases to a reasonable level and SMG spread to reset between bursts.

Bolt-actions: I was an avid DoD player back in the day, so I certainly miss 1HK bolt actions, but I understand that for balance reasons this humped damage model is adopted. I still wish that they would keep it 1 hit HS kill in close quarters though, to keep the skill element in the game.

Sorry for the longwinded reply, keep up the good work guys