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  • "ikjadoon" started this thread

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11

Saturday, June 18th 2016, 6:18pm

Hmm....how to convince DICE? They browse reddit every once in a while.

they also check symthic from time to time, but afaik, the easiest way to let them know is to contact demize,bach,tigge or jjju on twitter(don't know which one is working on bf1 so i mentioned all of them)
True. Twitter seems like the best bet. :D
OK, you know, I thought that, as well. Maybe they dumbed it down for the stream. But, it must be a legitimate Conquest mode: why would they go to the trouble of planning that entire mode just for a stream? It's not a simple tweak, AFAIK: removing ticket bleed, removing kills from the score, counting up, etc. I know it's early, but judging from the CTE, I think we all know how slowly it takes DICE to make changes. If there were any changes, they need to happen now.


You're also assuming that you have figured out entirely how the system works by watching a bunch of mostly clueless players.

I'd hold off until actually getting to play the game before really saying "Yeah this is how the game mode works"

I don't understand how the skill level of the players changes the underlying game rules. A bunch of noobs playing Conquest BF4 versus a bunch of ESL players playing Conquest BF4: ticket bleed works exactly the same. There is no difference.

If it was really just a tweak for the livestream, it was a massive tweak. This gamemode is clearly called "Conquest" in the spawn screen. If it was just time-limited or they changed the number of tickets or they even changed the ticket bleed rate, I'd agree with you: obviously a simple server config was changed for the stream.

But, this change seems too low-level to throw together for a stream. And why would DICE change something so fundamentally so drastically in a stream where they wanted to showcase the new Battlefield game? That would, at the very least, be pretty misleading.

Of course we won't know for sure until we have the retail game in our hands in October, though--you're right.


talking about flag burn, has nobody noticed you can see "burn leverage" now? i didn't care because i don't like conquest, but stonemountain mentioned it:

https://youtu.be/EjP7gPH2jxU?t=3m57s

True! I saw that, as well. I am ECSTATIC. I am so glad DICE is finally explaining this mechanic. We all know it, but I think the vast majority of other players cannot tell when the burn rate is "slower than it should be for the # of friendlies on this flag -- oh, that means there is an enemy here, too".

I think EA/DICE are finally understanding: many of our players never played any games from the BF2 era, where you didn't even know a flag was being taken UNTIL it was neutralized! That mechanic was fantastic, in my view, for backcapping and flanking: you, then, had to check flags yourself and defend them yourself. No "auto-TUG-S" on each flag that warned you whenever an enemy walked inside the cap radius.

I'm OK for dumbing down of Battlefield to reach a wider audience, BUT then at least explain the mechanics to new players!

We have this problem now in BF4, where teamwork & a bit of logic is extremely OP. It's because they've made teamwork very easy to do! Squad spawning, commander UAVs, health re-gen, no mag pool dumping, etc. So, for any decent player who has played BF before, BF3 and BF4 are BF Easy Mode.

Yet, DICE never explained those mechanics to new players, who don't really take advantage of them. Squad spawning?! Backcaps are SO easy now! Yet, we still have mass Zerg Rushes... :(

So, yeah: I'm all for player education.

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Sunday, June 19th 2016, 12:48am

Very interesting. In additon to the points that have already been raised, this new system should put an end to those close matches on even numbered flag maps that last forever, where neither team can control a majorty of the flags for more than a few minutes at a time, so there's very little ticket burn. With this change the conquest score should keep ticking up even when no team has a flag advantage, so the match will end in a reasonable amount of time.
bob

  • "ikjadoon" started this thread

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Sunday, June 19th 2016, 1:41am

Very interesting. In additon to the points that have already been raised, this new system should put an end to those close matches on even numbered flag maps that last forever, where neither team can control a majorty of the flags for more than a few minutes at a time, so there's very little ticket burn. With this change the conquest score should keep ticking up even when no team has a flag advantage, so the match will end in a reasonable amount of time.




Like Zavod 311, exactly. Looks like there will be at least two ways to end the match: time-limited (like in the stream) or point-limited (the spawn screen showed a possible limit, 1000). 1000 sounds painfully long (if ~15 minutes give you around 100 Conquest Points, 1000 would be a nearly 3 hour match). Hopefully, they pick a reasonable number that's high enough to make decent games, but not so long that people forget about it.

Maybe 200 or 250 points.

Also, there is a nice psychological effect of counting *up*: it sounds more like a goal, where counting down sounds more like attrition or "last man standing". And ticket bleed was a passive effect: it took a bit of "math" to figure out if it was in effect for your team or not, as for ticket bleed's entire life, it never had a UI element. You never knew, without counting flags, if you had it or not.

So, apparently, DICE showed a private "How to play Conquest" video to the players before the livestream. I wish DICE would figure out some system of player education. They've done 0 player education besides 4 sentences on the spawn screen. If they could just put a little effort into BF1, for all these new players, that would be dope.

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Sunday, June 19th 2016, 8:24pm

I dont get it, why this wasnt changed in BF4 CTE already. Just because its a different game? That would be a lame explanation.

Such a change is fundamental enough to warrant a test run there at the very least. Aaaand it would have helped to improve the BF4 game experience as well.
still playin' Motorstorm

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Sunday, June 19th 2016, 9:15pm

I dont get it, why this wasnt changed in BF4 CTE already. Just because its a different game? That would be a lame explanation.

Such a change is fundamental enough to warrant a test run there at the very least. Aaaand it would have helped to improve the BF4 game experience as well.


Let me speculate a little bit here: DICE LA realized that BF4 was a lost cause in terms of teamplay & objective-play. All we got: an extra 400pts for flag caps. No ticket bleed indicator, no CQ map imbalance fixes (even on vanilla maps), no the player name who revived you, etc.

And, time, too: by the time DICE LA reached teamwork, they realized BF4's cycle was finishing. BF1 was just around the corner (CTE shut down, effectively, after the fall patch in 2015). And teamplay/objective-play were going to take a long time (even as the solutions sound so obvious).

However, I think they did take our feedback. In BF1: ticket bleed (as an unexplained and hidden game mechanic) is very likely to be completely removed, hopefully maps are not being designed by artists anymore (as I found out was true for BF4's vanilla maps), and the player name who heals you is visible (not sure on revives, though---but, if they included "healed by" names, I'd be shocked if they didn't include "revived by" names).

So, they realized netcode & gameplay bugs were the main issues that prevented BF4 from being the game that had been imagined. A reworked Conquest mode, though, was never imagined or intended for BF4. And, looking at their timeline, it was better (as a "side" studio working on BF4) to give DICE SE the game they wanted, but not necessarily the game we needed.

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Tuesday, June 21st 2016, 12:21am

talking about flag burn, has nobody noticed you can see "burn leverage" now? i didn't care because i don't like conquest, but stonemountain mentioned it:

https://youtu.be/EjP7gPH2jxU?t=3m57s


I absolutely love the new CQ mechanics, but I hadn't seen this, which makes it even better. :thumbsup:
Who Enjoys, Wins

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Tuesday, June 21st 2016, 5:26pm

Jumping the gun there.

E3 and presentational versions of games are definitely not representative of the final product.

Although I don't think the tick up is going to change (which is fine), you have to realize that these are subject to change.

Not saying that you are wrong, but don't get too excited for things that are not finalized.

OK, you know, I thought that, as well. Maybe they dumbed it down for the stream. But, it must be a legitimate Conquest mode: why would they go to the trouble of planning that entire mode just for a stream? It's not a simple tweak, AFAIK: removing ticket bleed, removing kills from the score, counting up, etc. I know it's early, but judging from the CTE, I think we all know how slowly it takes DICE to make changes. If there were any changes, they need to happen now.


You're also assuming that you have figured out entirely how the system works by watching a bunch of mostly clueless players.

I'd hold off until actually getting to play the game before really saying "Yeah this is how the game mode works"



Well, you might be right. :( One of the Game Changers says that it could just be a placeholder.

XfactorGaming comments on [AMA] I've played quite a bit of Battlefield 1 and work with the dev team through the Game Changer program. What questions do you have?

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Tuesday, June 21st 2016, 8:11pm

i always thought about something: why don't you get points for stopping flag burn?

what i mean is, why, as a defender i get on a flag that is being burned and stop the burn, but don't get anything in return aside from the hope that someone will come before the enemy finds and kills me?



Capping and defending flags are equally important, defense rewards should indeed be a mirror image of attacking.

This seems to me like something that should have been taken for granted since Bf3.

Another thing that bothers me is the concept of cap bonuses.

Moving the bar (or stopping the bar when the flag is yours) should be the main source of points, as that is where the challenge lies. Loitering around outside the burn helps no one (unless you get kills, but they are rewarded individually anyway). Maybe keep a small bonus in the end for positive reinforcement.

That way contribution transalates directly to points, and we no longer have the incentive to just quickly get on the burn for the points when manpower is more needed elsewhere.

Also, filling the bar completely (either after defending or attacking) could give a flag defense/offense point, something I think should be categories on the scoreboard, in addition to kills. That way people can get an idea of what the teammates are focusing on.

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Things I support
ammo regen pls

Quoted from "NoctyrneSAGA"

_____
When I play with it [Autoloading 8] I feel like I am batman taking out 1 after 1 baddie while they feel helpless and don't know who is talking out their mates.
Remove 3D spotting. It’s a mechanic that rewards bad eyesight.
Wanna help your team by sneaking through enemy territory to provide spawns? THIS IS NOT TEAMWORK FGT I HOPE YOU RUN OUT OF MOTION BALLS TOO EARLY TO BE SUCCESSFUL
Wanna be Javelin squad but only have two guys? BETTER NOT GET YOUR SOFLAM KILLED FGT THIS IS NOT TEAMWORK WITHOUT A SUPPORT DUDE DROPPING AMMO ON YOU EVERY 2 MINUTES
Please post your best M1916 clips Magazines *fixed*.


DICE pls

Squadmate Healthbars in the HUD
Minor console QoL improvements
Ping Tool idea
"Wants to talk" tag for squad menu
Adding Suppression Confirmation
Spotting suggestions

Posts I should finish sometime:
Squad priority vehicle system (and anti stealing suggestion)
Scoring system flaws (and concept)
Battlefield definition
New helicopter idea
Suppression rework
Flow, immersion and fun in battlefield
Specializations: ideas and system rework
Gadget reworks and ideas
Why limited infinite ammo would be awesome
Other bitesize ideas



VincentNZ

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Tuesday, June 21st 2016, 9:45pm

So, let me get this straight, when I go 40-8 or something on Conquest on Zavod for example, I inflicted eight tickets lost on my team, while I inflicted 30 (estimated) tickets lost on the enmey, is that correct?

Now in BF 1, If I go 40-8 it basically only means this. Nothing else? Not like it gave my team 30 points on the conquest ticker?

I do not think I like this change, I always play aggressively on the object and generally I like to think that I inflict some damage to the enemy team with the kills I get. It is not that I play for K/D, but it works quite well. I am revived a lot, too so that helps. Generally though I think focusing less on K/D on conquest is a decent move though. I however would like to see that confirmed kills do contribute to the tickets either negatively like in BF4 or positively by going up.

On the attacking/defending debate, I do feel BF4 got it spot on, but I can see why they would want to change the system. If you are defending your own team's only flag, or if your team is spawntrapped you want to enforce the the losing team to take more flags. Increasing the points you gain is a natural way to do this. At the same time decreasing the points will make the dominating team less inclined to prevent the capture right away, or to keep on pressing towards the base. It might be to make unbalanced games less frustrating. Also the losing team would also be able to gain more points and feel less inclined to quit.

Miffyli

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Tuesday, June 21st 2016, 10:37pm

I do not think I like this change, I always play aggressively on the object and generally I like to think that I inflict some damage to the enemy team with the kills I get. It is not that I play for K/D, but it works quite well. I am revived a lot, too so that helps. Generally though I think focusing less on K/D on conquest is a decent move though. I however would like to see that confirmed kills do contribute to the tickets either negatively like in BF4 or positively by going up.

Weeeell if you go 40-8 or so it does affect enemy team's tickets quite a bit: You likely defended your flags or capped more, and thus enemy couldn't cause ticket bleed on you. While I know you're seeking more direct impact I reckon kills account for ~1/8 of lost tickets, maybe ~1/4 at most on average depending on the map and gamemode. Single person's kills affect it even less directly. Reviving can even have higher impact on the final ticket situations.

Besides my personal observation is that people could use some incentive to take/defend flags. Personally I get high up at scoreboard simply by doing the objective and capping points, even tho I just kill few guys and die even more.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included