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Zer0Cod3x

Can't get a title

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31

Saturday, May 21st 2016, 2:44pm

No quickscoping allowed; no pistol-swapping to finish a kill allowed. BASRs WILL be used at range..


Why, why and why?

I just don't get the hatred for quickscoping. It's just aiming normally but really fast. It's not like it's super OP and it's not like it's entirely unrealistic (at close range if I'm surprised with a bolt-action I'm not going to prone and hold breath, I'm gonna boresight the guy and shoulder-fire it real quick). It's not like BASR are always used at long range IRL... So why the hatred for it in-game?

Honestly not arguing and not interested in a flame war, I just don't get it. You guys are generally really level headed and interested in balance and fun and I don't see how this is a problem for you. I just want to understand your perspective :)

There is a difference between "quickscoping" and "aggressive recon." There's nothing wrong with quickscoping. Aiming and shooting fast is a skill that should be encouraged. What should be discouraged, however, is the trend of "aggressive recon" using a sniper rifle.

No, sniper rifles aren't always used at long range IRL. But they're certainly never used within 12.5 m of a target, which is what most aggressive recons like to use them for.


In general, shotguns are most effective in CQB. PDWs and carbines are most effective from close-mid range. ARs and LMGs are most effective at mid range. DMRs are most effective at mid-long range.

Why is it then that sniper rifles are most effective in both CQB and long range? Why do the sniper rifles have to break this trend?

Sniper rifles are supposed to be "long range" weapons. They are not supposed to be as effective as a shotgun in the shotgun's intended effective range.


This is the trend of "aggressive recon" that needs to be stopped. It's both a logic and balance issue.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


C0llis

Up and down. Bounce all around

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32

Saturday, May 21st 2016, 3:25pm

At close range you should have to rely on your secondary when you are running a BA as a primary (not to mention that you should avoid face-to-face CQB in the first place while running a BA). Compare with how you don't use a shotgun at long range while running one as a primary: you either grab a long range secondary or avoid long range in the first place.

Edit: I really like Marble's suggestion for BAs. Higher velocity for them is sorely needed.

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "C0llis" (May 21st 2016, 6:57pm)


NoctyrneSAGA

PvF 2017 Champion

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33

Saturday, May 21st 2016, 9:11pm

No quickscoping allowed; no pistol-swapping to finish a kill allowed. BASRs WILL be used at range..


Why, why and why?

I just don't get the hatred for quickscoping. It's just aiming normally but really fast. It's not like it's super OP and it's not like it's entirely unrealistic (at close range if I'm surprised with a bolt-action I'm not going to prone and hold breath, I'm gonna boresight the guy and shoulder-fire it real quick). It's not like BASR are always used at long range IRL... So why the hatred for it in-game?

Honestly not arguing and not interested in a flame war, I just don't get it. You guys are generally really level headed and interested in balance and fun and I don't see how this is a problem for you. I just want to understand your perspective :)


There is a weapon already designed for close range one shot kills.

We do not need a second set used for the same purpose simply because it is unable to achieve its intended long range kills.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

"Skill" may indeed be the most magical of words. Chant it well enough and any desire can be yours.

Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

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34

Saturday, May 21st 2016, 9:54pm

110 damage flat
[Aristocrat's Shoes]
TLDR -
Teamwork is where players function by themselves, but their effectiveness is multiplied when they work together. Not a checklist of "did we bring a healer so we can start playing?"

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35

Saturday, May 21st 2016, 11:38pm

Hmm, marble's idea is weird.

But still better than the inverse damage model thing.
Or than the current approach.

But then again. Why should I use a BASR if a DMR does the same damage at a higher ROF?
still playin' Motorstorm

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36

Sunday, May 22nd 2016, 12:04am

Going along MarbleDuck's idea, BASRs should have significantly higher muzzle velocities compared to DMRs. DMRs could have velocities limited to <700 m/s while all BASRs would have velocities >1000 m/s. That would make BASRs more effective at longer ranges than DMRs due to having an easier time hitting moving targets. Additionally, DMRs should not have the OHSK at long ranges (I'd say no OHSK beyond 50 m).

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37

Sunday, May 22nd 2016, 11:34am

Going along MarbleDuck's idea, BASRs should have significantly higher muzzle velocities compared to DMRs. DMRs could have velocities limited to <700 m/s while all BASRs would have velocities >1000 m/s. That would make BASRs more effective at longer ranges than DMRs due to having an easier time hitting moving targets. Additionally, DMRs should not have the OHSK at long ranges (I'd say no OHSK beyond 50 m).


Even without the OHSK of DMRs, their ROF is high enough to warrant aiming at body mass and ignoring Headshots completely. Their DPS are higher than a BASR-Headshot but still easier to use at common and effective ranges.

Keeping current map design in mind, the best distance for being a meaningful force on the Battlefield with a BASR is 100 to 150 m. At the same distance a DMR with ~700 m/s is a lot easier to use.

The benefit of Muzzle Velocity wouldnt make BASR better than DMRs in these ranges, but at least a little more on par.

IMHO there has to be done more. e.g. keeping the 2-Hit-Kill capabilities in these ranges, but let them drop to 3-Hit-Kill at extreme distances.

And keep the 100% at extreme in CQB. Its already a roll of the dice there, no need for further gimping.
still playin' Motorstorm

Sheepnub

I pity the wool

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38

Sunday, May 22nd 2016, 11:52am

Yes

Let's remove all the functions that make quick/hard/drag/1337-scoping harder. 110 flat damage. Increased velocity. And give every class a bolt-action rifle in order to empasize on the new meta.

Let's work together to make sure this is going to be the last battlefield ever.
"I put aside a few sceptics, the types of decency in the history of philosophy: the rest haven't the slightest conception of intellectual integrity."
Friedrich Nietzsche


Best of epic quotes :D

Spoiler Spoiler

Just realized it's 4/20 tomorrow


Thanks for the heads up!
*Logs out of Symthic in preparation*

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

>littlebird passanger, semi-auto frag rounds
>gunship OP

Meanwhile at DICE-headquarters during BF4's release:

I'm pretty sure there's a massive post-it on every desk "DON'T FUCKING TOUCH ANYTHING THAT IS ACTUALLY DOING WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE DOING"

UCAV:
"Hey guys remember how stupid prenerf mav was?"

"Lets add c4 to it."

The World Champion went to China once.

They called me a Gweilo.

So I kicked a big fucking hole in their wall and let all the Mongolians in.

just thought I'd share.


The thought of Assaults running out of ACE 23 rounds mid firefight, Engineers facing the rear of an unaware MBT with no rockets left, Recons unable to...Whatever the fuck they do. These are the things that keep me up at night ;(


About hunturk:
I don't know what's funnier, the video itself of the fact that an unlisted video has more views than most of your normal videos :P

...


You just live to hit people upside the noggin with a Math Bomb, don't you?

[context] Maybe it's the UK's overly aggressive porn filter at work. After all, it does have the word "monkey" in it and monkeys have been known to have sex so...


Previously, at DICE HQ:
"Ok guys, the password is "epic dream worlds"; everyone take a letter and do your best to turn it into into something random that we can put into a picture!"


I assume a functional game (BF4) also.

Aww!
*pinches cheeks*
So cute!


But but but

He's a Youtuber ;(

There's no way he doesn't know what he's talking about

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Sheepnub" (May 22nd 2016, 12:17pm)


C0llis

Up and down. Bounce all around

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39

Sunday, May 22nd 2016, 11:54am

And keep the 100% at extreme in CQB. Its already a roll of the dice there, no need for further gimping.

You shouldn't even be using BAs up close. Asking for them to be less gimped up close misses the point.

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

Posts: 4,259

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: Apr 6th 2012

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40

Sunday, May 22nd 2016, 11:59am

Buckshot should be less gimped at long range IMO. Shotguns are already bad if they are a 3HK.
[Aristocrat's Shoes]
TLDR -
Teamwork is where players function by themselves, but their effectiveness is multiplied when they work together. Not a checklist of "did we bring a healer so we can start playing?"